Looking for an answer to a question, I came upon this in the players guide:

How does this apply to special powers that are (for lack of a better word) implicity conditional? Something like The Question from Arkham Asylum's SP:

There isn't really an explicit condition in the power's wording, but more of an implied one (that being having not used the other of the two powers that turn). How would that affect a feat such as Outsmart, that doesn't require using Outwit, but has it as a prerequisite? Would she be able to use her Perplex and still make use of the feat, or not?

In a case like this, when the Question uses one power (let's say Perplex to keep this in line with your Outsmart question), the other power is not countered or lost... it just can't be used. This is more akin to canceling or ignoring a power. And neither canceling or ignoring a power is (usually) sufficient on its own to cause a character to lose access to a feat that has the canceled/ignored power as a prerequisite.

So, in this case, I'd rule at my venue that Question could indeed still make use of Outsmart even after using her SP to use Perplex. Outwit isn't gone (the SP is still there), she just can't actually use Outwit is all.

Look at it another way: a RCE is a prerequisite for Trick Shot and Elite Sniper. RCE can't be used with Running Shot, though. However, even though you can't use those two powers together, nothing prevents you from using Trick Shot or Elite Sniper with Running Shot since RCE (since RCE was neither lost nor countered, just currently unusable).


That said, I don't know that this particular wrinkle has come up before. Consider my answer provisional as I do some more research.

This actually reminds me of the Nico Minoru/Staff of One debate.

That also presented a situation where a Special Power would allow Nico to use Outwit or Perplex, but not both at the same time.

Under that precedent, I would say that when Question chooses to use Perplex she would be considered unable to use Outwit until the beginning of her next turn.

-J

So wait a minute, Let me get this straight..

could the question perplex down say thor's defense, and then outwit his Inv. or can she only use one power or the other?

That's just it, though... you techinically don't need to be able to use a power for it to meet the prerequisites.

After all, do you actually use Outwit when the feat Outsmart is used? Nope... in fact, it is your opponent's use of Outwit that activates this feat.

Or do you use Leap/Climb when you use the feat Pounce? Nope... in fact, the two are completely incompatible (at least the "ignore terrain/characters while moving part) because Pounce is a power action.

Stuff like this (including the associated ruling on Nico) is what makes the whole "SPs can be used as prerequistes" a very sticky situation. From a simplicity point of view, I vastly prefered the original Avenger-era rules that did not allow SPs to count for feats. It may not have been as "fun", per se, but it was much easier to keep track of stuff.

"Once during your turn, the Question can use Outwit or Perplex."

So yes, only one.

-J

Right. See just about any other SP (Question is a rarity for this "or" wording) as an example of what being able to use both might look like. For example, from Impossible Man:

PEST: The Impossible Man can use Outwit, Probability Control, and Shape Change.

Thanks for clearing that up. Glad i dont ever use her cuz I'd have played her wrong for over a year lol...

Kinda thinks that blows though

Technically, you absolutely need to be able to use a power.
Now the power may not be applicable to the action you're taking, but you must be able to use it.

Going back to your RCE example... Plasticity and Super Senses are prerequisites for Trick Shot and Elite Sniper, respectively. Neither one is applicable to a ranged combat attack.

If a situation exists where a character can not use the power -- such as Staff of One or Ask the Question -- then they should not meet the prerequisite.

-J

Sorry, but you're quoting the "Assigning feats" section. And if that's all there was to it, it would be as clear cut as you describe. Sadly, though, it is not as we can see in the "Using feats" section from the same page:

Using feats. In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it, all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and/or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot. If using a feat requires giving the character an action, then the prerequisites must be present on the combat dial at the time the player gives the character the action.

Nothing in that section indicates that the character must actually be able to use the power... just that it is visible on the dial. In the case of Question, Outwit and Perplex (via the SP) are definitely visible on her dial; she just can't necessarily use one of them depending on the circumstance.

Let's try a different tack...
Ask the Question is conditional. If you use Perplex, you can not use Outwit. Therefore, you can not use any Feats with Outwit as a prerequisite if you have used Perplex.

-J

A very good find and one we (the deputies and RA) had been discussing. In fact, we'd pretty much come to the conclusion that Question could not use Outsmart as described above for that reason, but we are still trying to think of counter examples to poke holes in that logic.

The longer it takes for us to think of these counter-examples, the more I am leaning towards the answer you outlined above.

Hm, is this where Neff points out he already said all that? LOL

-J

So no definitive answer on this? I will forever have to argue with a certain player at my venue about whether or not Metron can use Perplex and Contingency Plan at the same time?

Consider it a conditional case (so it can't be used if the conditions are not met, e.g. Outwit is gone after Perplex is used) for now.

If things change, well, then they change.

Besides, your judge has the final say... that should end any argument well before "forever" shows up