Lets say that I was to attach both the ALIAS and CAMOUFLAGE feats on any figure that qualify for the ALIAS feat (which is a fairly large number of figures).

ALIAS
Prerequisites: and
Choose a character.
(Optional) This character can use Shape Change, if it cannot already.
After this Feat is used, remove it from the game.
Cost: 3 Points

CAMOUFLAGE
Prerequisites: Shape Change
Choose a character.
When the character is adjacent to a wall or blocking terrain, any line of fire for a ranged combat attack drawn to the character is blocked.
Cost: 8 Points

I have just given said figure a variation of Permanent Stealth.

ARGUMENT:
Firstly lets look at the wording of ALIAS: "This character can use Shape Change, if it cannot already". The "if it cannot already" portion of the statement leads us to believe that the Shape Change granted by the feat is just as valid and lasting as though it were printed on the dial. Now since any figure that is employing ALIAS can essentially use the Shape Change on any click, removing the feat from the game whenever it does so, it is safe to say the figure has Shape Change on every click.
Following this, as the only prerequisite for CAMOUFLAGE is Shape Change, the figure can use CAMOUFLAGE on every click. It is also important to note that while the standard power Shape Change is (NON-OPTIONAL) the ALIAS feat itself is (OPTIONAL) so you never need to "cash it in" unless you wish to. Many feats operate on the idea of a power simply being present (Example: Ranged Combat Expert does not need to be in use to activate SPOTTER, just present). Bottom line: even if you never use ALIAS, it is always there. And so long as you are resting under the possibility of using ALIAS you can use CAMOUFLAGE. As a side effect this leaves you with the strategic option of using Shape Change at the cost of your "Stealth", though that would rarely be the best option. Finally, as CAMOUFLAGE only blocks line of fire for ranged combat attack it does not protect from powers such as Outwit or Perplex, but since this "Stealth" ability is made possible via feats alone, it cannot be outwitted or countered by conventional means.

If this is true, it grants the player the ability to imbue a remarkably useful version of "Stealth", on the entire dial of nearly any figure for just 11 points. The applications are mind-boggling.


I am nowhere near an authority on this game and while I believe that I am interpreting this correctly, I invite one and all to please tear my theory apart if they can.

************EDIT*************
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First, I’d like to thank all who responded to my question, as much of what was said caused my to re-evaluate my theory. I was looking to the HCR for a harsh attack of this loophole and I was not disappointed.

In my continued argument I wish to make sure that both my opposition and I are clearly understood and referenced. To that end I have taken the liberty of including the almost full FEATS rules section straight from the FF starter rulebook. I have not included the “Feats and victory points” area as it has no bearing on my argument. I have also highlighted the areas specific to my theory.

“FEATS
Feats are cards that can grant your characters additional abilities, if they
meet the prerequisites for using it and you pay any associated costs for
including it in your force. Feat cards indicate the point value of the feat,
any prerequisites required for a character to be assigned and use the feat,
modifiers the feat makes to a character’s combat values, and a description
of how to use the feat.
Assigning feats. If a feat requires you to choose a character or
characters on your force when assigning the feat, all chosen characters must
meet the prerequisites, and you must make the choice when building your
force; only the chosen characters will be able to use the feat during the
game. When you assign a feat to a character, you must also include the
point value of the feat in the point total of your force.
In order to be assigned a feat, a character must meet its prerequisites.
A prerequisite power or combat value does not need to be visible on a
character’s starting click for the character to be assigned the feat, but the
character’s combat dial must be able to turn so that all power and combat
value prerequisites for the feat are visible through the stat slot at the same
time.
If a character can use a power or ability via a special power or ability,
it can be assigned a feat with that power or ability as a prerequisite, but
it must be able to use the power or ability on its own. Being able to use
another character’s team ability (as wild cards can do) or power (as with
the special power Power Drain, which allows a character to use another
character’s powers) does not satisfy the prerequisites for a feat.
Feats included as part of your force can be assigned only to characters
that are part of your force, and they can’t be used by an opposing player,
even if a character assigned a feat card becomes friendly to an opposing
player’s force during the game. A character can be assigned more than one
feat; however, a character can’t be assigned multiple copies of the same
feat.
The 10% Rule. The combined point value of feats included in your
force can be no more than 10% of the game’s build total. For example, in
a standard 300-point game, this means you are allowed a maximum of 30
points of feats in your force.
Using feats. In order for a character to use a feat assigned to it,
all prerequisites for the feat must be printed on the character’s base and/
or visible on its combat dial through the stat slot. If using a feat requires
giving the character an action, then the prerequisites must be present on
the combat dial at the time the player gives the character the action.
Combat values can’t be modified to meet the prerequisites to use a feat.
A character that already meets the prerequisites to use a feat can have its
combat values modified as long as the modified combat values still meet
the prerequisites to use the feat. If a prerequisite power, ability, or symbol
has been countered or altered on a character by any game effect (such as
the Earthbound or Outwit powers), the character can’t use any feats that
have them as a prerequisite.
A feat assigned to a character is in effect during an action unless the
player who controls the character indicates at the beginning of the action
that the feat is not being used. The feat resumes its effect immediately
following the completion of an action during which it is not used.
Feats that modify a character’s combat values modify those values
only when the character is using the feat. If a feat modifies a character’s
speed value or range value, apply any modifications to those combat values
immediately before giving the action to use the feat. If a feat modifies
a character’s attack value, defense value, or damage value, apply any
modifications to those combat values during the attack before the attack
roll, but after applying any replacement values.”

I would first like to point out that nowhere in the FEATS rules does it state “feats cant be used as prerequisites for other feats”. This could be rectified with an incredibly small edit but as of now neither that statement or anything like it is present in the text. Nor does it say anything about terminology of "can use" Vs. "possess" having any bearing on Feats.

However I agree there is a little ambiguity that need to be cleared up. For this lets compare the wording of ALIAS and the starter Mr. Fantastic’s Special Power: Pliable.


Both use the same term of possession “can use”. Given this, the powers are to be granted to the character in the same way, just by different sources. It is also worth pointing out here that the RED selection supersedes the ORANGE selection, overriding it. Otherwise the starter Mr. Fantastic would never be able to use BRILLIANT TACTICIAN.

The RED selection refers specifically to the idea of using a Feat based off the prerequisite that the figure in question has “borrowed” from another in some fashion. For example one cannot use BRILLIANT TACTICIAN it only has access to the prerequisite powers via IN CONTACT WITH ORACLE as those powers are “borrowed”. And the rules are clear that feats cannot be applied to figures who are using the “Wildcard Ability” or SP’s like JL Parasite’s Defense Drain as the figure does not possess those powers it is simply borrowing them. This does bring me to a very interesting question:

Can JL Parasite use Defense Drain to “borrow” Invulnerability from an opposing CR Darkseid when his “All Will Serve Darkseid” SP is showing?

Though it is not printed on his dial, I’m sure few would question that Darkseid does indeed posses Invulnerability and that it could be “borrowed“ by JL Parasite. Given this, the answer is yes.

Now, can JL Parasite use Defense Drain to “borrow” Shape Change from an opposing figure using the ALIAS Feat?

Again, though it is not printed on the dial, the figure does indeed posses Shape Change as the Feat specifies. This should be clear from my previous example of “Pliable Vs. ALIAS”. Again the answer should be yes.

This would most often have little objection, as is relatively harmless, legal and does not help much. I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this. If you could allow this, there is no technical reason one should not allow the ALIAS/CAMOUFLAGE combination.

Some have brought up the argument that IF this were possible, that you would only be able to use it until attacked, as the rules of ALIAS say, that you would lose the “Stealth” altogether. However, look at the BLUE selection:

A feat assigned to a character is in effect during an action unless the
player who controls the character indicates at the beginning of the action
that the feat is not being used. The feat resumes its effect immediately
following the completion of an action during which it is not used.

Now reading this, all long as you declared that you ARE NOT going to use your ALIAS Feat when you are the subject close combat attack and the start of that action, you will not lose it. And when the action is completed, regardless of the outcome of the attack, the Feat reactivates until you say otherwise. End Result: you never have to lose "Stealth" unless you want to.

Now for my theroy to be correct, this does create an weakness in its playability. If the Shape Change granted via ALIAS is to be regarded as a power akin to say Pliable, and CAMOUFLAGE does not guard against outwit, only Ranged Combat Attacks, then this version of “Stealth” can be outwitted at range. While this does hurt the playability a little a skilled player would still be able to use it effectively. In truth I like a bit more this way as it makes the ability less powerful & more believable. Think of it as a hand-held cloaking device. It's not perfect but anyone can use it.

My conclusion is still that the ALIAS/CAMOUFLAGE combo is entirely valid.

I'd like to once again thank you all for testing this theory as I am even more confident that this works than I was originally. That being said I look forward to your take on my new arguments. All I ask is that you explain your counter-arguments as I have. Let the arrows fly!

Feats cant be used as prerequisits for other feats...
As in one granting you a power does not alow you to assign a dif feat to that character cuz it can now use said power.. you get what I mean?

I believe the intent of Alias is that it is not "on" unless you turn it on. Once you turn it on, it gets removed from the game. The only thing I can find to indicate this is:

I freely admit that I may also be wrong about this. I'll also admit that I had the same wicked thought about his Feat combo as you did.

I believe that Powers granted by Feats cannot be used as the sole prerequisite to assign a Feat in the first place, but can allow a character to use the (second) Feat on a click that they otherwise would not be able to.

The standard example of this is a character with Perplex and Outwit on their dial, assigned both In Contact with Oracle (with Oracle on the card) and Brilliant Tactician. The character could use BT on a click without (natural) Perplex if they are granted Perplex by ICwO.

Unfortunately, I can't find the documentation for this...

I would think that the difference here, if this is the case, would be that the character could have been assigned BT regardless of the ICWO. I don't believe that you could assign Camouflage to a character that didn't meet the prereqs on their own, regardless of Alias.

FF Rulebook, page 19: In order to be assigned a feat, a character must meet its prerequisites.

Holy Cow! Permanent Stealth! How did nobody notice this potent combination before!

this was addressed in another thread(i'll see if i can find the link). this combo does not work.

And the very next post did just that.

They can, as described by pseudosoldier.

They cannot be used to meet the prereq for assignment, but they can use a power which becomes POSSESSED to meet the prereq for use.

No you haven't.

There is a world of difference between "can use" and "possess" where powers are concerned.
Even if The first part were true, which it isn't, you would only get one use out of it.

I will be using this combo with Surtur right away! *rep to you Sir!*

But, it is not Stealth. Surtur has Shape Change (so he qualifies for Camo) and for the clix that he doesn't have Shape Change, I'll use Alias.

Section 7 of the new Players guide:

"Alias
This feat is considered "used" as soon as the character has rolled for Shape Change."

This will allow my Surtur to use the feat Alias for the rest of his dial, and force everyone to base him and get their butts kicked by my Fire Demons... And this also means that even if you can outwit my powers, (25 points of Fortitude should help against that) you'll still have to base him because of Camo being activated by the permi-Shape Change Alias gives me. As long as I don't roll for Shape Change, (not required because feats are optional) Range attacks are not an option.

But everyone else is correct who says that if your character does not have the prerequiste for the feat without on it's own to be assigned, (I.E. Brilliant Tactitian even via trait) you cannot use the feat.

So the way you have described it, (using a feat to qualify for another feat, but cannot be assigned the feat without another feat) is not correct. Somewhere on the character (at least one clix) you must qualify for each feat you use.

No figure that does not naturally posess Shape Change or is able to "use" Shape Change because of a Special Power can be assigned Camouflague...You cannot use a feat to give a figure a prerequisite for another feat just like Wildcards cannot be assigned alternate team abilities for which they do not posess the team symbol on their dial.

However, if the character has or can use Shape Change, even if it's on the last click, then you can use the Alias feat card to allow him to use the Camouflage on any of his/her clicks. Edit: Nevermind...it doesn't work...Thanks Harpua.

I did something similar with FF: Professor X...I assigned him Brilliant Tactician and In Contact with Oracle and put Oracle on her card, since he has Mastermins on his first click, I had V Lockjaw carry him and take Mastermind damage, then Professor X used Orace's Perplex on his first click (that he has Leadership on) and vola! He can Brilliant Tactician without pushing off his Mastermind click.

Take a look at the Batman Alpha: The Masked Manhunter...he has Stealth AND Shap Change for most of his dial, so if you assign Camouflage on him, he can hide in hindering OR next to blocking...

The Alias/Camo combo DOES NOT WORK.

It is different than the Oracle/Professor X combo, which does work.

read harpua's post

ICWO grants possession of a power

Alias does not grant possession so it would not meet the pre-req to use a feat.

Alias does not grant possession of the power (ICwO does), which is what is required in order to be able to meet a prerequisite.

Exceptions are made for special powers, traits, and abilities which allow you to use a power.

A feat which allows you to use a power does not fall into that category.

LOL! Nice try on the combo, but Alias is a one-time use feat, and once you use it, you lose it.

And as Harpua stated, Use and Possess are two different game terms.

You cannot put Alias on Surtur as the feat needs both and ; Surtur is a giant with symbol for damage.