I am requesting that we can get a clarification added to the next publication of the Player's Guide.

(Last night, my friend, playing a S.H.I.E.L.D. team, Thunderbolted the couple of Avengers on his team to S.H.I.E.L.D. Team Ability. I ruled that, using, what I find very sound logic in my argument, that the +1 to Attack Value was against S.H.I.E.L.D. TA members, not S.H.I.E.L.D. Team Symbol members; hence anyone with the S.H.I.E.L.D. ability whether granted by Thunderbolts feat card or the S.H.I.E.L.D. Team Symbol, would be affected by the +1 AV modifier granted by Alpha Flight used by the opposing team.)

Please read for my logic behind this...

Below are the wordings for both feats. I will underline certain words that are key in the clarification needed. After the quotes I'll ask my question.

With Thunderbolts, we see they get a new Team Ability, but their Team Symbol does not change. (It actually uses the word 'team affiliation', which refers to the Team Symbol. A distinction that was not made on the Alpha Flight feat card.

Now to my question...

Since the Alpha Flight feat card requires the Avengers TA, and not the Team Symbol, and it states that now all friendly figures with the Avengers get a +1 to AV versus a 'chosen team' (not team symbol or team ability) but just 'team'. I would say that +1 to the Attack Value is against a chosen Team Ability, and not chosen Team Symbol.

The reason I say this is with these older feats, the precedent has been set with the prerequisites for the cards to be Team Abilities (and not Team Symbols). So my Avengers Team Ability figures would become Alpha Flight Team Ability Members... NOT Alpha Flight Symbol Members...

Same is true with the Thunderbolts feat card... the prerequisite is Avengers Team Ability, and it changes their Team Ability, not Team Symbol.

Using this exact logic and reasoning.... it appears the 'chose a team' and 'chosen team' referred to in the Alpha Flight refers to the Team Ability and not the Team Symbol. Hence, the +1 bonus to the AV would be against members with the same TA, not the same Team Symbol.

I have read a few of the older posts on this, and Harpua's and NBPerp's rulings conflict with each other in the older posts.

But like I stated... using the context that both team ability and team are used in these feat cards, and using the exact reasoning and logic, it does appear that 'team ability' and 'team', 'chose a team', and 'team chosen' and are synonymous with each other, and as has been proven on the Thunderbolts feat card, these terms: 'team ability', 'team', 'chose a team', and 'team chosen' are definitely antonymous with the term 'Team Symbol'.

I propose a serious discussion regarding the Alpha Flight feat card, and the logic brought up in my argument, be brought up between the game designer who designed this card and the official rules arbiter and his sheriffs to determine an official ruling and addition to the Player's Guide.

So the gist of your question is:

Team A has 2 Avengers and 3 X-Men. The Avengers have Thunderbolts and they choose X-Men as their TA.

Team B has all Avengers with Alpha Flight. They choose X-Men as their Alpha Flight bonus.

You're proposing that all the figures on Team B would get +1 to their attack values against all the figures on Team A?

Just trying to clarify.

Correct. And I gave an in-depth argument for my logic behind the ruling that I gave at the tournament. It is my belief that we need a clarification for this added to the Player's Guide, with a logical explanation being based on the definitions of game terms, and why it would be ruled one way or the other.

To the best of my knowledge, you ruled correctly.

Using absolutvt69's simplified example, the Alpha Flight guys would get the bonus against all of the natural X-Men and all of the T-Bolted X-Men for the same reason that they can can exchange clicks with one another.

Thank you Harpua.

This leads to my next two questions.

Question 1: Player 1 has an Avengers team. He assigns the Thunderbolts feat card to his whole team and chooses Morlocks TA.

Player 2 has a Beta Flight Team. He assigns the Alpha Flight feat card to his team. He then chooses the Avengers TA as the chosen team granted by the Alpha Flight feat card.

However, since Player 2 chose a TA that is no longer possessed by Player 1, he can't get a +1 bonus to Player 1's team, which have the Batman TA now.

But... since the Alpha Flight feat card states you must choose an 'opposing team' or character, and there are no 'opposing team' members with the Avengers TA, I would rule this an illegal choice, and would allow Player 2 to properly choose Batman as his choice.

Is this how you would rule it?

(This came up about 3 or 4 tourneys ago between an Asgardian Team and an Invaders Team).

Question 2: How are Wild Cards handled when targeted by an opposing team that has Alpha Flight assigned to it? Since a Wild Card doesn't possess, but can only use, another Team Ability, would they subject to the +1 AV modifier against them?

I would rule, "No." The reason being they don't have/possess the TA, but can only use it. So I would say that Wild Card figures are immune to the affects of Alpha Flight.

as far as i know if you have an entire avenger team thunderbolted then choosing the avengers ta is the same as choosing what they are thunderbolted too as for wild card no you don't get the Alpha Flight bonus for wildcards

VGA, I'd say that you're correct on both counts.

Thanks a bunch for the clarifications. I appreciate your help!

Well this is also brought up with Skrull yellow jacket and
TRAITOR: Yellowjacket can use Outwit. He can use it normally, or he can choose a team ability possessed by an opposing character 6 or fewer squares away to which he can draw a clear line of fire and counter that team ability on all opposing characters.

it was rulles the same that if i outwitted say a T-bolted Batman Allie then the natural Batman Allies would also be outwitted.
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showth...hlight=TRAITOR

I always have stated they need a distinction b/w The team name the team symbol and the team ability when it comes to feats and SP's.