Player A is running a wildcard and a character with the Watchmen Team Ability.

At this moment, the wildcard is not using the Watchmen TA.

Player B announces he will use Perplex to reduce the wildcard's Defense value.

Player A can not head this off by having the wildcard assume the Watchmen TA, because...

I believe I've reached the right conclusion here, but wanted to verify.

(This amuses me, because it finally provides a situation other than Batman Ally/Running Shot where that rule applies...)

-J

Hmm...I'm not sure that it does.

There are two ways to read "cannot be modified" as we have seen in the past.

1) It can mean the act of applying a modifier. (If I use Perplex on you, I have just modified your combat values.)
2) It can mean the state of being during which your combat values remain in a state of having modifiers attached. (Right now you have +1 to defense, so your combat value is modified.)

Personally, I find that when in doubt, applying it to both definitions works well.

So I would say that the TA works like Rip Hunter, imo. It stops the values from having a modifier applied, and if it has already had it modified, then that modifier is ignored for the moment.

Now, that begs the question of if you can target a figure with Perplex if you can't actually do anything to its values. I'm pretty sure that you can, though I could be wrong.

IIRC, it was asked if I could still use Perplex on my figure which has been Outsidersed and then have modifier come into play when Outsiders wears off. As I said, I think the answer was yes.

I agree with this.

You agree that you can do it...or you agree that I could be wrong?

I recall this being correct (yes, you can use Perplex on an Outsider'd character to try to take advantage of the modifier after the TA wears off).

Further more, nothing in the Watchmen description actually says that the modifiers are illegal... only that Watchmen character's combat values can't be modifierd. So you could hit them with Perplex all you want, it just won't do any good. Kind of like attacking with a character with Impervious when you only deal 1 damage... sure, you can attack (nothing says you can't), it just won't matter.

In the case of wild cards using the Watchment TA, though, I'd say it does matter. I Perplex you're wild card's defense down -1 and you say you're copying Watchmen so, for the moment, Perplex won't really have an effect. However, I then have my big ol' beatstick try to attack your wild card and you decide that'd you rather use Mystics since A) I am probably going to hit you even with your unmodified DV and B) you'd like to whittle my big gun down a click with some mystical retaliation. So you switch TAs and now, suddenly, that modified DV becomes important again.


That's the way I see it.

I think it sounds right that you could target a figure with perplex even though it might not have any immediate effect (similar to your example with outsiders).

An opposite example would be with Fortitude. Not only can you not counter someone via outwit on a character equipped with Fortitude, but you can't even target them with outwit to get rid of their powers.

The Watchmen TA doesn't actually indicate, like fortitude, that the certain power can't be used... it simply says that their stats can't be modified.

The modifier sits there, waiting to be used until it goes away, as per the source of the modifier (i.e. Perplex has its own rules for when the mod goes away, various bonuses are for the attack only, etc.)

Just like if you had modified, through various means, a character's attack value up by 5. When the time comes to apply it, all but 3 are ignored but the modifiers remain until they end according to their source. So if you had a transporter and modified him by +5, he will attack at his listed value +3 (up +5, down -2, net +3, no violation of Ro3)

Okay, so just to make sure I understand this right:

The difference here is that the Watchmen TA does not actually prevent the character from being targeted by Perplex. It simply prevents the modifiers from being applied. Therefore, the use of Perplex remains legal.

Hmph, glad I brought it up.

Funny you should mention that...

-J

I recall the ruling you are referencing as well. Based on normalview's answer it seems that only number 2 above is being applied. So is your opinion that this works like Rip Hunter (1 and 2) or is this more like normalview suggested and just 2?

Obviously there is a similar conversation going on regarding Outwit. Are Perplex and Outwit going to work the same or differently?

wait what batman ally/running shot situation?

please elaborate.

The new ruling is when you declare a Ranged Attack onto a WC, and that WC is not copying batman TA, they can not choose to copy the batman TA and make the action illegal.

Now when you declare RS they can change it to Batman then you move your movement and declare your attack.

So can you outsider a Watchman and will that prevent his/her values from going up due to a CCE, RCE, Combat Reflexes or ES/ED. For example, if chief (opposing character) use the Outsider TA on Rorschach, will that mean that Rorschach cannot benefit from CCE?

BUT SKRULLS!!!

(ahem)

Okay, to be completely accurate I shouldn't have said Running Shot, I should have simply said ranged attack, and I should have identified League of Assassins. Oops.

You can find the whole sordid debate here: http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275045

I'm gonna regret bringing it up.

-J

Yes. That's perfectly fine.

Harpua, did you end up agreeing with normalview and a character could use Perplex on a character using the Watchmen team ability or are you of the opinion that it's like Rip Hunter and a character cannot use Perplex on a character using the Watchmen team ability or is this still an open issue as far as you are concerned?