I have a quick question. I see that Super Skrull Illuminati is eligible for Brilliant tactician. My question is, would everyone share the +2?

My thinking is that Brilliant Tactician states "when he uses perplex" and since SSI is self-perplexing by +2, the feat turns what would normally be just reserved for him and give it all friendlies. Can someone qualified rule on this, please?

Yeah you're correct in your thinking. He would be able to use it on himself to modify by +2, but the rest of the targets would just receive +1.

but why would the others only get +1? BT says that every friendly gets the effect of the perplex. The effect is +2.

I see that it's a bit of a cache 22, where SSI gets the +2 only when targeting himself, but i think that's where BT kicks in and delivers that effect to all friendlies. Can you help me understand why or why not?

Sure. It's really because Super Skrulls power is very explicit in stating how it works when he uses it differently than normal. "He can use it normally, or he can modify any one of his own combat values by +2 or -2 until the beginning of your next turn."

Because it says "one of his own", and not something to the effect of "one of his own, an ally's, or an opponent's"... the +2 that can be applied only works on himself.

For Brilliant Tactician, the feat doesn't care how you use perplex, whether it's normally or not... it just cares that you're using it to reap the additional targets for the use of perplex, which is why SS Illuminati is still able to modify himself by +2 but the rest just get +1.

To kind of reinforce this... If Super Skrull Illuminati could only use the +2 to target himself, and wasn't able to use perplex normally, you could technically still be able to put the feat on him, but when using perplex because he could only affect himself he wouldn't have any additional possible targets for his use of Brilliant Tactician.

This logic has been reinforced by previous rulings with other figures that can use perplex but only in a limited fashion. I'll see if I can dig them up.

Edit: here are a couple of threads with other characters that have a variant of perplex which has limitations to how they can use it.
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255129
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288392

So Doctor Octopus can only use it on himself, and Question can only target opposing characters... so they have limits on Brilliant Tactician as well.

So this is why when Super Skrull Illuminati uses the +2, he can only apply it to himself... but due to there being no limit on him using perplex normally, he is still able to perplex other characters by +1.

7ofdiamonds,

I really appreciate your thoutful responses. the problem is, i think i'm either too dumb to fully understand it or by some outside chance, I could be right (not likely). WHy i keep getting confused is that i don't think it should matter how SSI's perplex is used. Whether it says only him (as in Merlyn) or only other figures, Brilliant Tactician makes no reference that it is factored in the effect of the feat. All the feat cares about is:

1. the figure has both outwit and perplex
2. when the figure uses perplex (it doesn't care how perplex is used), the effect (in this case +2) is transferred to all friendlies....blah blah blah.

So, even though the +2 is only when he targets himself, that's only a requirement of the Special Power, not a requirement of the feat, which trumps it. The feat simply takes the effect and applies it to others. SSI got the +2 because he perplexed himself, and others get the +2 because the feat takes the effect of the perplex and gives it to them.

I'm not trying tp argue with you, I'm just trying to understand where my personal glitch is on this. I know you've made great efforts already to explain it, but if you wouldn't mind giving it one more shot....

thanks

Actually, Feats don't necessarily trump powers.

Brilliant Tactician changes the way perplex can be used in only one way, it allows a character to use perplex, and then use perplex on all friendly figures with which it shares a keyword or Team Symbol.

When SSI uses perplex on himself he gets a +/-2. When he uses it on anybody else they get a +/-1.

With Brilliant Tactician, SSI can give himself a +/-2 and everybody else a +/-1 because that's the way his power works.

Well, I'm not sure how much more I can say, but I shall give it a try.

Think about it this way, pretend there are no special powers, no white boxes. Brilliant Tactician existed before special powers did and has always worked with perplex.

It allows you to perplex more than one character because it plays off the wording of perplex, it just allows you to use it on more than one character, as long as they share either a team ability or keyword with the brilliant tactician.

The normal wording of perplex is that you can modify by +1 or -1 the combat values of a "target character". The wording of target character is not explicit or specific so it is assumed that you only need to be able to target them, and the target can be friendly, opposing, your even the character that is using the power.

SS: Illuminati's portion of the power which allows a +2 modification is specific in that it indicates that it has to be his own values, so modifying anyone else by +2 other than himself is prohibited by the wording of the power. The only reason he is able to still perplex others with the power is because the earlier portion of his power indicates that he can use it normally.

When you use Brilliant Tactician, I don't know exactly how the interpretation was arrived at but it is assumed that the initial perplex and the perplexing of additional targets are separate (though they still happen simultaneously), which is what allows you to say perplex an enemy's stats down, and then with Brilliant Tactician perplex everyone that shares a keyword with the perplexer.

I've always though that Brilliant Tactician would be a lot more clear for a lot of people (it's probably the most common feat that has question asked about it) with the addition of one little word...

So in the case of Super Skrull Illuminati, he can perplex himself by +2 with the second way of perplexing granted to him by his power, and then he may also use brilliant tactician to use perplex normally on anyone else he shares a keyword or team ability with.

it's pretty simple, he gets +2 to himself or he can use perplex normally.

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ah. NOW i get it. your "ALSO" thing made it clear to me. thanks for your continued attention!

Absolutely. Not a problem, brotha.

I have to disagree with this. When Super Skrull: Illuminati uses Strange Magicks he can use it in one of two ways. He can either use Perplex normally or he can use Perplex to modify any one of his own combat values by +2 or –2. This is an either/or choice. He cannot do both. He cannot modify any one of his own combat values by +2 or –2 and use Perplex normally. So if he chooses the second option, that option is in effect when he uses Brilliant Tactician. So while Brilliant Tactician might normally allow him to affect every target friendly character that shares a team symbol or keyword with him, he would still be limited by the second option to only modifying his own combat values and thus Brilliant Tactician would be meaningless when using that option. This is in accordance with other characters who cannot use Brilliant Tactician effectively like The Question. I know normalview has expressed the same opinion (click here) although the lack of rules posse posting on this thread makes me wonder.

Questions: With Batman Beyond & The Question the restrictions on the use of perplex limit whom the perplex can be used on.

However with SS:Illuminati, there is no limitation on whom the perplex can be used, it just assigns a variable modifier based on whom is being targeted by the perplex.

Not sure if that's enough to make a difference for purposes of BT, but hopefully one of the rules deputies can chime in on it.

I think Batman Beyond and The Question have the same limitation.

From the Player's Guide:
I see the other two use the word "only," but all three of them seem to have similar limitations to me. Differences in structure aside, if you use Strange Magicks to modify his combat values by +/-2 I think you are limited to his own combat values. That said, I agree it can use some rules posse input. The Final Word time.

I'm grateful for all of the answers i've gotten on this, but i would be very interested to submit this to the Final Word forum for analysis. how do i get it there?