wouldn't Invulnerability subtract 2 from the regular damage and then also subtract 2 from knockback damage?

from the rulebook:

quote:
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Super powers that reduce damage (such as Toughness and Invulnerability) reduce knockback damage.
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quote:
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Toughness stops 1 point of damage per attack, so any time a dice roll is made to hit the character with Toughness, it “resets” and stops another 1 point of damage.
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...from the FAQ.

This says that a dice roll is SUFFICIENT to reset toughness, but not NECESSARY.

It doesn't say,

"a dice roll is made to hit the character with Toughness if and only if it “resets” and stops another 1 point of damage."

what i'm trying to say is that it seems like it says that a die roll is not the only thing that will reset toughness

As far as I know, nothing stops knockback damage. Other damage that ignores damage modifiers are poison, psychic blast, and incapacitate if it causes a push. I'm sure there ar others, but these are the ones I use most.

first of all, poison is stopped by invul/toughness.

secondly, see my quote from the rulebook above, saying that toughness reduces knockback

Mrvel Heroclix Rulebook, page 14
"Super powers that reduce damage (such as Toughness and Invulnerability) reduce knockback damage."

Alrighty....

damage is going to be calculated seperated then applied simultaneously near the end of the action.

So, say you have a figure who is atthe edge of a building.

He takes 4 clicks of damage with knockback.

First you'd calculate the regular damage. In this case 3.
Then you'd subtract for Invulnerability. 3-2 = 1.
Then you'd do the knockback. which would give another 2 clicks of damage.

Since Invulnerability was already used this action (and no other dice roll was made to 'reset' it), then it cannot be used to soak the knockback damage.

Your figure would take 3 clicks of damage.


Same situation, but now the attack has Psychic Blast.
First you'd calculate the regular damage. In this case 3.
Then you'd subtract for Invulnerability, Psychic Blast will ignore.
Then you'd do the knockback. which would give another 2 clicks of damage.

Since Invulnerability was not used yet in this action, then it can be used to soak the knockback damage.

Your figure would take 3 clicks of damage.

Basically, Invulnerability/Toughness can be used once for each attack action made against this figure (there is an exception).

Does this make sense?

Well, I reckon the judges have been playing it wrong then. It's almost a moot point considering the proliferation of Outwitters in most games.

I see what you're saying, Tsannik, but the sentence in the FAQ doesn't say that you need a dice roll to reset toughness. It only says that when there is a dice roll, toughness is reset.

How do you justify your position from the rulebook or FAQ?

Tsannik (or other judges), any thoughts?

Alrighty...

Both the damage and the knockback damage are taken in the same action.

Invulnerability/Toughness can only be used once in that
action.

All damage would be calculated and totalled. Then any Defensive power would be used on that damage (in this case the Invulnerability/Toughness would then be used to subtract from the totalled damage).

Does this explain?

Tsannik is correct. Knockback is based on how much damage is inflicted after reducing for Toughness and Invulnerability. That means they have been used for that action.

Invulnerablity and Toughness will reduce knockback damage but will do it when not used up, like Tsannik's Psychic Blast attack example or using Force Blast which is not an attack so Toughness would kick in when the target was thrown into the wall. The issue about Toughness resetting shows that Toughness is used up during that action.

This has been clarified by the rules adjudicator although I don't have a quotation at my fingertips just now.

Knockback only does 1 extra point of damage. Just clearing that up.

Whoops, sorry Tsannik. I did not see in your example that he fell off a building.

Actually, Knockback itself deals no damage. Only if he hits a wall does he take an extra click of damage. (or a crit. hit, or falling off a building)

Thats what I meant. Sorry about that.