HER? WELL, SHE FLIES. AND WE THINK IT'S A "HER": Dinah Soar may carry up to two characters if they both have the Avengers keyword, or three characters if they all have the Great Lakes Avengers keyword. Dinah Soar modifies her speed value by -1 for each character carried instead of the normal effects when using the Carry ability.

TINY SIZE: Modify this character's defense value by +1 against ranged combat attacks. A friendly character that is larger and adjacent can use the Carry ability to carry up to one "Tiny Size" character, does not reduce its speed value for doing so and can continue to use the Carry ability if it can normally. This ability can't be countered.



I have:

Hawkeye 98
Mockingbird 50
Wasp 50
Dinah Soar 25

all on my squad. Can Dinah Soar carry all 3 of them? Two of them with her special power (Hawkeye/Mockingbird have the Avengers keyword), and also Wasp because of her Tiny Size?

I would say yes.

Yeah. Tiny is giving Dinah the ability to carry, while her own Carry is used on the other two. nice catch...

Does she lose -3 to her movement or do you only count the 2 figs she is carrying using her special carry?

It's still a carry so -3.

Why -3? If she's carrying a tiny character, they don't affect her speed.

A friendly character that is larger and adjacent can use the Carry ability to carry up to one "Tiny Size" character, does not reduce its speed value for doing so and can continue to use the Carry ability if it can normally.

Wouldn't it be only minus 2?

Because:
Carrying a Tiny is *still* a Carry, so -3.

Because:

Dinah Soar modifies her speed value by -1 for each character carried instead of the normal effects when using the Carry ability.

The normal effect when carrying a tiny would be that there is no reduction to the speed value, but Dinah doesn't care about the normal effects. Her power says that she gets a -1 reduction for every carried character. A carried tiny is still a carried character.

I see what you guys are saying, but to me, it's a little ambiguous:

TINY SIZE: Modify this character's defense value by +1 against ranged combat attacks. A friendly character that is larger and adjacent can use the Carry ability to carry up to one "Tiny Size" character, does not reduce its speed value for doing so and can continue to use the Carry ability if it can normally. This ability can't be countered.

To me it seems like there are two completely separate mechanics here. Tiny carry, and Dinah Soars carry. Which takes precedence first? To me it seems you could satisfy either one. I'm going to carry the Tiny character, and it doesn't effect my speed nor normal use of carry. So basically it seems to me that the Tiny character can just be ignored for the purposes of Dinah's restrictions to carry.

Honestly, I can see it your way too, but which one takes precedence? Dinah Soar says -1 for each character carried, Tiny says it does not reduce speed value when carried. Why does Dinah's carry restriction win out so to speak?

honestly i'm thinking Tiny would override.. since it's already overriding the "Carry cannot carry fliers/duos" portion.

Is she (Dinah Soar) using the carry ability normally? No, she is using her special ability that lets her carry up to 3 figures. Each will give her a -1 to speed.


You want her to use it normally? Fine. Only carry 1 figure. -2 to speed, and you can carry the tiny figure for free.

Again, I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's open and shut for a couple reasons. First, it doesn't grant her the ability to use Carry normally and specially.

Dinah Soar modifies her speed value by -1 for each character carried instead of the normal effects when using the Carry ability.

It just modifies her use of the Carry ability period. It doesn't say she may use Carry normally, or etc, etc, etc like some powers do that have special stipulations. So there is no possible way for Dinah Soar to get a -2 from carrying just one character.

So to me, no matter what she does, she's using the Carry ability normally, whether carrying 1, 2 or 3 characters, but that Carry ability is being modified by her power.

Secondly, lets just assume there is a difference between 'normal' carry and her special carry. Why does it take precedence?

Why does:

Dinah Soar modifies her speed value by -1 for each character carried instead of the normal effects when using the Carry ability.

take place, but:

A friendly character that is larger and adjacent can use the Carry ability to carry up to one "Tiny Size" character, does not reduce its speed value for doing so


Get's ignored?

I'm not seeing a clear reason for ruling it that way. I do see the argument, but I don't think it was intended this way, nor do the rules bear it out explicitly. Either way, one of the provisions is being violated, so how in this case do you rule which one takes effect?

Tiny Size does not, in and of itself, override the prohibition on carrying flyers and duos.


edit: the more I think about this...
Dinah is using Carry, but instead of the normal penalty she reduces by 1 for each figure. Tiny Size says don't reduce for that figure, which is not the same as "does not reduce it's speed value by -2 when doing so". So I'm going to say she would not count the Tiny as part of the figures used to calculate the -1.

I am of the opinion that it would be -3 to her movement because she is not using Carry normally in this case. The wording seems pretty clear to me.

No but Norm saying it works that way is good enough for everyone on this planet except for you. So in this thread we'll pretend it's already spelled out in the player's guide, for those of you who simply have to have it written on stone tablets for it to be a ruling.