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Soo I was thinking about Larfleeze's power:
SUMMON THE ORANGE LANTERN CORPS: Give Larfleeze a free action to place a WOL #H001 Orange Lantern Absorbed into an adjacent square. Give Larfleeze a power action to place a WOL #001 Orange Lantern Construct into an adjacent square. Use these abilities only if no more than 3 total friendly characters, including tokens within stacks, with either name are on the map.
and this:
EPIC HORDES
In epic battles, defeated horde tokens are removed
from the battlefield as normal but have a chance to
return. At the beginning of each player’s turn, that player
may place horde tokens previously removed from
the battlefield back onto the battlefield in that player’s
starting area.
So here's the situation (its an epic game): Over 3 turns I make 3 OLAs. I get them KOed and remove them from the battlefield. Over the next couple of turns I get another 3 made. Now, at this point Larfleeze can't make any more, but I there are 3 that have been KOed that I can return using the horde token rules, right? Resulting in a total of 6 OLAs in a dozen turns or so. And assuming any new ones Larfleeze creates also get KOed, they too could return via the Horde token rules right? Its not unbeatable or anything because I assume all these KOed OLAs are giving my opponent victory points.
If I mind control one of your horde tokens and it crit misses, it was KOed while friendly to me. Does that mean now I can bring it back to the battlefield and you cannot?
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
Side note: You can make four of them. The wording says you can use the power only if there are no more than 3 of them out already. 3 is not more than three, so you can make a forth.
If I mind control one of your horde tokens and it crit misses, it was KOed while friendly to me. Does that mean now I can bring it back to the battlefield and you cannot?
Ok so you're saying that only horde tokens that I pay points for can be returned with the Epic rules? Where in the rules is that? Actually, why couldn't you return any of my KOed horde tokens to the battlefield on your side? The rules don't really say anything about friendly or not.
In epic battles, defeated horde tokens are removed
from the battlefield as normal but have a chance to
return. At the beginning of each player’s turn, that player
may place horde tokens previously removed from
the battlefield back onto the battlefield in that player’s
starting area. For each 100 points of the game’s build
total, a player may return two horde tokens to the
battlefield at the beginning of their turn, to a maximum of
50 total points of tokens per turn. You may return them
directly into a stack if the stack is in that player’s starting
area and has less than tokens in the stack. In an
epic battle, if a player has only horde tokens remaining
on the battlefield at the end of any turn, all of their horde
tokens are immediately defeated.
Or is the implication that the returned horde tokens are in fact the same horde token, not just another copy?
Ok so you're saying that only horde tokens that I pay points for can be returned with the Epic rules? Where in the rules is that? Actually, why couldn't you return any of my KOed horde tokens to the battlefield on your side? The rules don't really say anything about friendly or not.
In epic battles, defeated horde tokens are removed
from the battlefield as normal but have a chance to
return. At the beginning of each player’s turn, that player
may place horde tokens previously removed from
the battlefield back onto the battlefield in that player’s
starting area. For each 100 points of the game’s build
total, a player may return two horde tokens to the
battlefield at the beginning of their turn, to a maximum of
50 total points of tokens per turn. You may return them
directly into a stack if the stack is in that player’s starting
area and has less than tokens in the stack. In an
epic battle, if a player has only horde tokens remaining
on the battlefield at the end of any turn, all of their horde
tokens are immediately defeated.
Or is the implication that the returned horde tokens are in fact the same horde token, not just another copy?
My implication was nothing, I was simply expanding upon the question asked with another related question. I assumed the new token is considered to be the same as the old one. Can I return bystanders from my opponent's force to my force? Is that a thing though? You seemed to support that idea.
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
Yes, it's possible, but the amount of time it takes essentially makes it a useless tactic.
For each 100 points of the game’s build total, a player may return two horde tokens to the battlefield at the beginning of their turn, to a maximum of 50 total points of tokens per turn.
Note that while the number of horde token scales to your build size, the maximum number of points does not. Since the Orange Lantern Absorbed are 25 points each, you can only ever return 2 per turn, no matter what size force you're playing.
To generate X number of tokens will require X number of turns to create them, plus another (X-4)/2 turns to bring them all back into play. In the mean time your opponent will score (X-4)*25 points from all the tokens you had to KO after the first 3 to allow new ones to be brought into play.
My implication was nothing, I was simply expanding upon the question asked with another related question. I assumed the new token is considered to be the same as the old one. Can I return bystanders from my opponent's force to my force? Is that a thing though? You seemed to support that idea.
I'm pretty sure you can't return opponent's horde tokens, but that section in the rulebook doesn't actually say anywhere that you can't.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????
For each 100 points of the game’s build total, a player may return two horde tokens to the battlefield at the beginning of their turn, to a maximum of 50 total points of tokens per turn.
Note that while the number of horde token scales to your build size, the maximum number of points does not.
Is that how it ended up being ruled? I could swear that at one point, it was ruled that it was "For each 100 points... 50 total points...", so in a 400 point game, you could return 200 points worth of horde tokens.
But I've never been in a situation where I wanted to return more than 50 points of horde tokens, so I don't know.
Is that how it ended up being ruled? I could swear that at one point, it was ruled that it was "For each 100 points... 50 total points...", so in a 400 point game, you could return 200 points worth of horde tokens.
But I've never been in a situation where I wanted to return more than 50 points of horde tokens, so I don't know.
That may or may not be the intent, but it has never been ruled that way by an official member of rules team.
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
Good to know that someone was fighting for it, but it does limit just how much more over the top they can be... getting 50 points back per round is still a big boost when it's not that easy to KO more than 3-4 in a turn short of PW/Quake.
Although back on topic, I got a couple responses on this from the rules team:
Quote : Originally Posted by E-mail thread
In a game 400 points or more (making it an Epic Game), if Larfleeze Summons a WOL #H001 Orange Lantern Absorbed and it is KO’d, can it be brought back into the game via the Epic Hordes listing in the rulebook?
“EPIC HORDES: In epic battles, defeated horde tokens are removed from the battlefield as normal but have a chance to return. At the beginning of each player’s turn, that player may place horde tokens previously removed from the battlefield back onto the battlefield in that player’s starting area.”
As a follow-up question, if my opponent Mind-Controls a Horde token during an Epic Game and rolls a critical miss with them (KOing the token while friendly to my opponent), would my opponent be able to “resurrect” them per the Epic Hordes rules above? If not, can you please point out a section in the Rulebook or PG that says they can not? I’m not finding a rule that says they can’t and the Epic Hordes rule doesn’t state they have to “begin friendly.”
--------------
Hello David,
Yes, the Horde tokens may enter the game through the Epic Hordes rules. You may not use Horde Tokens that did not begin the game friendly to your force or that entered the game friendly to your force.
Heroclix Rules Team
--------------------
That’s great to know about those Summoned Horde tokens being able to “respawn” in an epic game, but I’ve got to ask… what specific rule says that you may not use Horde tokens that didn’t begin the game friendly to your force? I’d like a rule to show another player so they don’t doubt me.
--------------------
The rules for Horde tokens returning to the map are to only apply to a players friendly force. You may not bring in Horde Tokens that did not begin the game or enter the game friendly to your force. [with no specific citing, but they may have been too busy to quote it if there is one]
So yes, the Summoned Horde tokens CAN respawn in your starting area, but Larfleeze's power to Summon them is still limited by how many are currently on the board. A good and bad aspect, but it gives another aspect that may help/hurt some players.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????