I'm discussing this over in general discussion, but I figured I'd start a thread about it.

The New Rules all make perfect sense (well, mostly) to me, except the glaring exception that is you can still Telekenisis someone and have them attack in the same turn.

Yes, TK is vastly inferior to Old Rule taxiing--there is no question about that. But with the "no taking an action after being carried" rule, you now have 4 options for "moving and attaking" on the same turn:

-Charge/Running Shot/HSS. These three powers are very limited (half move or only on, like, 2 or 3 expensive characters in the game). And very expensive.

-Telekenisis. Does as much of what taxiing used to do as you really need. Is cheap. Is common.

It strikes me that now pretty much *every* team with have a TK unit on it. If you want the capability of moving and attacking on the same turn, you'll get a cheap TK unit (R Mandroid? R Jean Grey?) Again, yes, TK is *much* less effective than Old Rule taxiing. But it is now, really, your only option. So it will show up all the time.

I'm not saying this will, like, ruin the game or anything, but it strikes me as an odd oversight, considering the complete predjudice with which the new rules did away with "moving and attacking" on the same turn. And it strikes me that *every* team ever built will have some sort of TK unit involved.

Anyone have any insight as to why this is?

-Peter

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new rules don't say you can move a friendly character without a succesful roll. It looks to me like the power just got nerfed. Anyone else seeing this?

Nope, you can still move a friendly figure without making an attack roll! Couple TK with a CH, RS, or HSS figures and you can really abuse moving and attacking in the same turn. The Rookie Mandroid armor will see significant play in tournaments for Marvel. For DC, Cosmic boy is going to become a staple as well. He can carry your gounded figure up and on the next turn TK them into your opponents force.

There are 3 TK options, and the 2nd is the one relevant to moving friendly figures.

TK is a crucial power now...as expected, when eliminating what some people deem 'cheese' we will all discover new 'cheese'. It's happened with each release and now it will happen with the rule changes.

I think these points about TK are the most important flaws in the new rules.

Inbetweener wrote:
>>I think these points about TK are the most important flaws in the new rules.>>

I'm, like, totally baffled by this, myself. They clearly wanted to avoid a single unit being able to move and atack on the same turn. So they instituted the "No Action After Taxi" rule. This makes perfect sense to me.

But to institute this rule while leaving TK as a still viable option to do exactly what the whole game has been restructured to disallow makes *zero* sense to me. At all. Is there anyone here who was involved in the discussions that led up to this who can shed some light on it?

I mean, yeah, again, TKing someone is *much* less effective than Old Rules Taxiing. Yes. However, with *no* taxi and attack under the New Rules, Telekenisis becomes *huge*. If you want to be able to move and attack, you are going to use a Telekensis unit. As *everyone* wants to be able to move then attack, everyone is going to use a TK unit. All the time. In every team. As it is effectively the only way to move and attack on the same turn.

Yes--Charge, Running Shot, and HSS are all still in play, but this is a fairly limited ability--you only move half speed (which is *always* going to be shorter than the 10 square range of Telekensis); you can't combine them with RCE/CCE (which you can use just fine after being TKed); these powers are very expensive. A cheap TK unit (R Mandoid? R Jean Grey?) is not an insignificant numberof points, but still, they are pretty cheap. And thus will be on every team.

For instance, I need to retool my standard Avengers team. What it is going to become is something involving E Wasp, V Hercules, and R Jean Grey--Jean will hurl Hercules into close combat (with the large object he is holding...). Hercules will demolish something for 6 damage. E Wasp will free move adjacent to Hercules. Next turn, if Herc takes damage, Wasp will medivac him out.

This is what I see happening on *every* team that is going to be viable--If you can make a solid first strike, you'll have a significant advantage. The *only* way to make a significant first strike is to use Telekenisis. So everyone will use Telekenisis.

Which is ok, I suppose, but still, it strikes me as completely rediculous to have left this in the game. If you are going to remove taxi/attacking, then remove taxi/attacking. Don't remove taxi/attacking only to leave in Telekensis/Attacking.

-Peter

If you TK someone in, yes they get to attack but the figure is also on it's own. If you move Wasp in, they both have to stay there for at least a turn allowing your opponent a shot at them.
TK also has much more limitations than flight because of LoF requirements - good luck TKing a figure to the middle of a building or around a wall. Plus TK will never be as crushing as a Green Lantern planting three bruisers in front of your figure! :knockedou

>>If you TK someone in, yes they get to attack but the figure is also on it's own.>>

Yes. TKing is much worse than Old Rules taxiing. But this does not remove the fact that it is now, essentially, the only way to significantly move and attack with one figure on one turn (yeah, Charge, RS, and HSS are all still viable, but TKing someone 10 is generally going to be more effective than charging someone, like, 4; HSS is very limited in what it can do, as it comes on 3 figures, one of whch is difficult to get). Meaning that it is the most significant option for making a first strike, and making first strikes in the game is huge.

Yes, they get left alone. Yes, you only can place them in LOS. Yes, TK can be Outwitted.

But there is *no* other good way to get in a first strike. So TK will be as ubiquitious as R Vulture used to be. Yeah, it won't be as good as R Vulture was, but as it is all there is, it will show up *all* the time. Which is silly, as the rules were just completely restructured to avoid this sort of thing.

>>If you move Wasp in, they both have to stay there for at least a turn allowing your opponent a shot at them.>>

But if you TK someone in, have them attack, and then move Wasp in to pull them out the next turn to get to the medic, thereis no wait. You get to have a big bruiser move (10 sqaures) and attack on one turn, and then pull them out ofter they are hurt. Heck, you can TK them in, have them hit, back them up with a flier. Next turn, push them to attack again, and *then* pull them back to the medic.

>>TK also has much more limitations than flight because of LoF requirements - good luck TKing a figure to the middle of a building or around a wall.>>

Yes--again, this is all significant. But still, if you can't take an action after being taxied, but you *can* take an action after being TKed, TK becomes the power to have, the power to abuse, and the power to beat.

Which is silly.

-Peter

nope, you don't have to leave a TK'd figure out on its own. Use two TK'ers, a RCE attacker, and a free move flier, and for three actions you can TK (after perplexing the snot out of him) up cyclops to attack with RCE for 4+ damage. This lets you effectively cover up to 20 squares (10 for TK, 10 for range attack).

Next, TK up a free move flier next to Cyke, and evac him back to the group. If you use, say R Jean Grey, E cyclops, R mandroid, and R Hawkman (31, 68, 28, 32 points respectively), then you can pull off this combo for 159 points, leaving you plenty of room to round out a 300 point team--say add in a R Thor (109), who can free move up to be in a position to attack with RS after the cyke trick has worked a few times, a paramedic (12), a hooker (11), and I think you'll have room for a hydra team fig to carry with thor for a +1 to attack.

Anyway, this will let you get at least two attacks off on a team before they can cover the distance to your base of operations.

TK will be much used now.

double post, ugh

Oh Peter, you and your trying to make the rules balanced. When will you learn? Probably about the same time you learn to argue a new way?



fact: at least it's worse than old-rule taxiing
fact: it's massively inefficient, and if it makes people include R Jean Grey on their team, that's pretty entertaining, inasmuch as she basically has zero other powers
fact: ninjas are totally sweet


Xian
totally kidding, and hasn't really read the new rules yet...so busy being a rockstar

I've already tun into LOF issues trying to use TK to move pieces. It's still a way to move and attack, but far, far less powerful than taxiiing. I don't think it's going to be a huge problem.

Xian wrote:
>>Oh Peter, you and your trying to make the rules balanced. When will you learn? Probably about the same time you learn to argue a new way?>>

I know. What am I thinking?

>>fact: at least it's worse than old-rule taxiing
fact: it's massively inefficient, and if it makes people include R Jean Grey on their team, that's pretty entertaining, inasmuch as she basically has zero other powers>>

True, true. But now she has the power "I'm on of the only ways in the game to have a single figure both move and attack in the same turn". Which is as big a selling point as you need.

>>fact: ninjas are totally sweet>>

This, my friend, is iron clad.

>>Xian
totally kidding, and hasn't really read the new rules yet...so busy being a rockstar>>

So I totally gave you top billing on my web page!

Rock on,
-Peter

Ignatz Mouse wrote:
>>I've already tun into LOF issues trying to use TK to move pieces.>>

That is 'cause the LOS issue is significant.

>> It's still a way to move and attack, but far, far less powerful than taxiiing.>>

Yes, it is. Which, when there *was* taxiing, was significant. Now that you can't taxi and attack, that TK lets you do this is just silly.

>>I don't think it's going to be a huge problem.>>

I don't think it is going to be a huge problem either, but that isn't really the point.

The rules were completely restructured to do away with the ability to move and attack in the same turn. Which was a *huge* change to the game. That they totally turned the game upside down, yet left Telekenisis in as a total loophole to the "no moving and attacking in the same turn" paradigm is absurd.

Removing the ability to taxi/attack makes Charge and Running Shot (and HSS) as useful as the expensive cost warrants. Which is good. But this is negated, mostly, by Telekenisis, which, for about 30 points, allows you to give your best, non Charging (or whatever) hitter virtually the same mobility and ability to move and attack in one turn that the game was completely overturned to remove.

Is this going to ruin the game? No. But every team (well that is going to be successful) is going to have Telekenisis. Much like every team under the old rules had taxis. R Jean Grey will become as common as E Wasp was.

And in a design sense, it makes no sense at all. Ya know--the complete re-writing of the rules to avoid one thing, but leaving a loophole in that allows you to do exactly what the game was just completely re-designed to disallow.

-Peter

I dunno-- I just don't see it being anywhere as omnipresent as the taxi abuse. Certainly not as manditory.

I may be wrong-- we'll see.