Well, I think I've just about had it with this game, I'm just tired of so many of the problems. Mechs that are vastly underpowered, Mechless and faction mixed armies, messy, kludgey rules, sloppy gameplay (moving.. clicking, and so on.. it's very inelegant and sloppy).. it's just so tedious and annoying and well.. not fun. I've tried to modify the game to make it smoother, but most people don't do this, so it's a one sided thing. For instance: I cut out thin cork in the exact size and shapes of unit bases. Marked the exact middle, put arrows on one side. Then I can lift a unit to click, or to move, and the move is exact, and it goes back where it came from. And I love using terrain or scenery that makes the game -feel- like a battle somewhere cool and futuristic. Playing on a piece of green felt with pieces of paper strewn about just doesn't do it for me.

Add in a few other things, and I'm about ready to ditch this game. I gave it a fair go, I think. I looked at the pictures from Nationals. I was underwhelmed. What an ugly game. I mean really.. the main event involves playing on playing boards that have randomly cut out pieces of paper strewn about. It is all about stats and cheese at this point.. the entire premise of fighting Mechs just right out the window. Partly because you only see them half the time, partly because they are underpowered except in a few cases.

At any rate, I'm pondering moving into CBT, where there are established rules. Sure, they are more complex and the game is more time consuming, but I think I'd like that more than the untested, wonky rules, mechless mess that MWDA is. It is improving which is cool, but geeze, it improves SO slowly! And I worry they will 2.0 it.. and then all your past stuff will be chaffe. Add in I am sick of the cheesy way that they 'add' rules. That is, take a rule from a FANTASY based wargame, change the name of the rule, how it works slightly, and voila.. you now have a Mechwarrior rule. Yea. Right. :rolleyes:

So how many of you have already played CBT somewhat extensively, or have gotten into it since? I only dabbled long ago. I was more more into other Mechwarrior outlets, most notably all the computer versions of Mechwarrior. It was super cool to make my own Mechs. :p

Questions I have:

Have any of you used the MWDA Mechs and units to play CBT? Are they too large, or ok? Do they work well with the minatures rules? Does anyone know of a solid hex based movement rules for minatures? Would I just be better off selling all my MWDA stuff, and getting new CBT stuff?

Would my existing terrain work ok with CBT, or is it just too large? Scale: (http://www.geocities.com/fleabitfox/mechstuff.html)

It would be a bummer to have to make all new terrain. :(

What are the best rules to start with? I don't want super simplistic. Should I get the second or third set? Has anyone here played both and have a preference?

Any other advice about going from MWDA to CBT?

I've had some fun playing this game, but geeze, it's more pain that it is worth. The flavor of MECHWarrior is just missing imo, and that is the reason I got into this game in the first place. Sure, I could play Mechs. But when your opponents either never play them, or the half that do, all play the same ones.. and of those, half use them as bumper bots, it's really grating.

Unless someone knows about a revamp of the MWDA rules. If someone does, let me know. ;)

fleabitfox

BattleTech is good for your soul! ;)

At any rate:

I've never used MW figures for BT. I believe there are some conversion rules, and the figures would also probably be okay using the tabletop rules(Or whatever they're called). These figures are way to big to use on the standard hex maps though.

As far as terrain goes, that'd work just fine for the tabletop rules, but the standard game uses pre-printed hex maps(I think).

If you want to give BT a try, I recommend you head on over to MegaMek.net. Grab the campaign client and go, should be someone on willing to teach you how to play.

Happy hunting.

Thanks! Someone mentioned a hex based map blown up like, so they can be used. Someone was indeed playing this way apparently at a convention or something. Anyone know anything about this?

fleabitfox

YES! BT is just great, and MMnet is even better. The learning curve can be difficult for MegaMek if you don't know any rules like movement, to-hit #s, etc, as they are VERY important in the campaign. I would suggest downloading the stand-alone MM and playing against a bot.

I'm on MMnet a lot, under the same name, broodwich.

I buy a lot of the TROs and other supplements for BT, but haven't actually played a real life game, only MM. It is quite fun.

As for MWDA units in BT, yes there are rules set up for using them. They're in the Miniature Rules book, available pretty cheap on eBay and from Fast Forward entertainment. check it out.

CBT -- or RBT as I prefer to call it, "Real BattleTech" -- is a more complex game than Dark Age, yes, but it's also much easier to learn because the concepts used are simpler. The complexity comes in the detail level and variety of mechs available.

My recommendation: Download the Quick-Start rules from classicbattletech.com and try a few solo games. That'll teach you the basic concepts -- movement, calculating to-hit targets, and recording damage.

Then you can pick up either the boxed set, which includes photocopiable record sheets and standup cardboard mechs and a couple of maps, plus what we call the "Level 1" rules.

There's also the Master Rulebook, which has the Level 1 and Level 2 rules, and Maximum Tech, which gives us Level 3; separate map packs, and Technical Readouts full of mech and vehicle histories and stats, etc.

Level 1 is the game as it was originally, with some basic revisions to the rules. It's the Third Succession War, the Inner Sphere is fragmented, there are no Clans or Republic. Compared to the QuickStart rules, it adds internal damage, heat management, an enhanced Hit Location chart for attacks from the sides, above, and below.

Mechs are the irreplaceable, often cobbled-together family heirloom Kings of the Battlefield. Battlearmor infantry is nonexistant, vehicles are vulnerable and not as well armed or armored as mechs.

Level 2 adds little in the way of new rules, and a lot in the way of technology. This is where we see the introduction of things like Gauss Rifles, Pulse Lasers, and the Clans. You can set fire to woods, break off trees and beat other mechs with them, and train your infantry for anti-battlemech assaults.

Mechs are still Kings of the Battlefield, but Battle Armor has arrived, and fusion-powered tanks are becoming more common and more powerful. Artillery and VTOLs become available, but are not nearly as powerful as their Dark Age counterparts.

Level 3: Even more advanced technology, most of it items that were in the prototype stage at the time of the Jihad. Here is where we get into the really meaty rules -- graphing altitude of intervening terrain to check line of sight, enhanced vehicles, turrets on battlemechs, and all sorts of other nifty things. It's fun, but it makes the game a LOT more complicated, so it's all optional. Many groups will play with bits and pieces of it, but only a handful use it all.

If you want to get HYPER-hyper-realistic, there's the old and out of print Solaris VII boxed set, which takes us into the realms of mech-on-mech arena duels. The scale is cut into quarters, so that we can deal with close-quarters fighting and much tighter interaction, tracking rechard/load times of weapons, careful heat management, and so on. The results it produces are closest to the fun of the video games, but there's a lot of work to go with it.

It's LOTS of fun, though.

Fleabitfox, in case you decide to start playing BattleTech, I'd advice you to use your MW:DA-miniatures. You already have them, so it will save you money. Of course there is a scale difference between BattleTech (microscale, approximately 1/280) and MW:DA (scale N, 1/160), but that's a matter of finding other players who'd like to play BattleTech with their MW:DA-miniatures. The whole idea of 'blowing up' a BattleTech mapset sounds good enough to me, but it will still be twodimensional terrain. It is better looking twodimensional terrain than the tournament legal stuff from WizKids, however. There are also special rules for playing BattleTech without the regular 'hexed' mapsets, so it might be worth it to look those up.

CBT is awsome! CapCon all the way baby!

You can also try the TechWarrior-rules by Suskis, which are (as far as I understood it) a work in progress with the goal of combining the fast play of MW:DA with the more stable rules of BattleTech. With a bit of luck you can find other players who are willing to try these alternative rules out. Of course those rules are not usable for official play, but that's pretty obvious.

I used to love Battletech, right up until FASA Corp. (the original makers) folded. I've played it since 1991. However, for the last six years, I've had a real hard time finding anyone to play with. The tournament structure and lack of playing community are the main reasons I left the game, and (imho) the main strengths of MW:DA. I may only have 4 players coming to my venue, but I have seen 0 CBT players in this area.

However, it sounds like this MegaMek is a big gaming community, which is forcing me to reconsider. Definitely try it - I plan to. Battletech is a real fun game, emphasizing the Mechs and making the vehicles chaffe. In fact, vehicles may be too weak in BT; but compared to MW:DA, that may be a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for the help guys, great resources for me to try out! Thanks Croaker. :)

So have people / can you create a gaming table? I really like the looks of the ones custom made for Wizkids, and I'd like to think with plenty of effort, I could get close to duplicating the look of their playing fields. The main question I have is: For the minatures vs. hex based, is the measuring of minatures fairly accurate and elegant? MWDA uses such a kludgy system, it's silly. A Mech can squeeze between two other Mechs with an inch between them, but couldn't until recently step over infantry. :rolleyes:

In MWDA, you can't even see the 'center dot' that you use to measure movement, so it is rather hit and miss. Maybe a qtr inch doesn't matter to some folks, but it does matter to me. That might represent a heck of a lot of power a certain Mech doesn't have. :p

Thanks for all the help, appreciated!

fleabitfox

@FleabitFox: True CBT uses a hex system. You don't even need minis for it. You measure everything hex-to-hex, not mini-to-mini.

None of this "I based you!" "No you didn't!" "I based you!" "No, you didn't!" garbage. You can play CBT on hex ceramic tile with pieces of paper and I have heard of people who've done just that.

I've seen the blown up CBT maps, they had them back at the FanPro area at Origins. They even had record sheets done for quite a number of common, unique and LE mechs.

I didn't get a chance to find out who did it at the time, but I was trying to get the source until the forums at classicbattletech.com went down. Hopefully I'll find out how they did it soon, I want one for the shop I play at.

Yes, MMnet is growing. I love it because it is an open source community and is free. These guys have put unbelieveable amounts of work into getting it going and supporting it. At it's busiest time, there's 80-100 folks online, ready to fight, at the lowest, it's about 40. This is for the campaign version, mind you. A stand-alone is also available for connecting directly between computers, or for practice.

Also, in a place like mine where few to no people play, MM allows me to find many games.

I've seen a few purpose built CBT tables, but they were both city tables with hex overlays on the flat surfaces. I've also seen some generic tables that were done with Geo-Hex matts and used Geo-Hex hills and scratch built terrain of all types that could be placed where ever. One thing about it is you can do about anything you like when it comes to doing a table.

I personally prefer hex over mini rules though I've only played with mini rules a few times years ago. The hexes just make it so much easier to figure movement and range, the mini rules are more free form and reallistic but I see it as adding un-needed compexity when the hexs do nicely. You can always try both ways and go with the one you like most, but it will most likely be easier to start with hexes and move on to mini rules.

I have played CBT for close to a decade now. I've played it in miniatures form (no hex-grid) and standard (hex-grid movement). I've also played OGRE and CAV as well the normal MWDA. Out of all of those game systems my fav remains CBT. It is more complex than MWDA to be sure but the rules in general also are more 'realistic' and just generally make a lot more sense. Imagine that. It also is a game where mechs are THE keystone pieces in your army. Yes any mech can still be taken out with a lucky shot but in general they can withstand a LOT more punishment than their MWDA counterparts. Mechs are the true focus of the game.

You can make it as simple or as complex as you like. Want something quick and easy? Stick to mech-only play and use only level 1 tech and only use a couple mechs per side. Want a mid-range game? Use level 2 tech mechs-only and have a full lance/star per side. Want something advanced? Add in a few buildings for an urban environment and start throwing in vehicles and infantry. Want the ultimate experience? Jump up to level 3 tech, a full company of mechs per side along with supporting infantry and vehicles and include the other extras like arty, minefields and whatnot.

There are also little tricks to making play faster like colored movement dice (PM me about this if you want more details).

Yes you most certainly can use MWDA figures for CBT.

If you really want to get in to the game I would suggest at the very least that you go out and buy online Heavy Metal Pro. This includes ALL mech records ever made for CBT and there are files out now for the MWDA mechs as well. You can also download Vehicle Factory 3 for free (I have a copy on my website). If you want to play a miniature-rules game of CBT then when you go to print out the mech sheets in Heavy Metal Pro there is an option to print out with those ranges (all ranges and movement speeds are doubled using miniature rules). This will keep things looking more in scale when using MWDA figs while playing CBT.