This is not a rant Thread. It is intended to assess comparative prices for the Twins and their abilities.

Now plainly the base cost of the twins (21 points) is consistent with previous pilots (e.g. J.P.Millhew and Katana Tormark).

It is with the ability that we get somewhat sidetracked. The twins get three abilities:

+1 to attack 'Mechs
Can receive 2 orders per turn
If in the same battleforce as the other twin/'Mech combo then a free order

Let us compare to similar abilities:


+1 to attack:
There is no direct comparison. The nearest examples are:

• Arzu Shishekli (+1 to attack Heavy/Assault 'Mechs or vehicles 70pts +) M 12 pts
• Matt D Lossey (+1 to attack using RCO) M 14 pts
• Maximillian Marius (+1 vs Elite/Unique) A 10 pts
• Selene Petros (ignore Assault Mod) L 10 pts

Now some of these are paired with other abilities but the nearest equivalent is Selene's ability, which costs 10 points. Either Twin gets the benefit of this in Assaulting 'Mechs but also when doing a ranged attack of any kind. However they don't get it against tanks. Even then, to me it would make sense that it costs 7-10 points in its own right.


2 orders per turn:
One 'Mech allows the other to act however it wishes. Equivalents include:

• Kisho Nova Cat (free non-run Move costing 1 heat prior to other order, cannot end in BC with opposing unit) M 11 pts
• Katsuro Sutoku (two orders at cost of +1 heat and 2 damage) H 31(!) pts

Now here every two order ability is not only more expensive than the 7 point but on top of that it has a massive restriction. Kisho can only do a non-running move.

The nearest equivalent is Sutoku's which has no restriction just like the Twins but his ability costs 340% more and inflicts huge amounts of damage and costs +1 heat compared to the twins.


And finally, the free order:

• Kisho Nova Cat (free non-run Move costing 1 heat prior to other order, cannot end in BC with opposing unit) M 11 pts
• Katana Tormark (free infantry or vehicle order after she has acted) M 10 pts
• Dot Nostra (if Assault then on a 5 or 6 another 'Mech can Assault) M 8 pts

For Kisho, the additional order is only to himself and is very limited. Katana can only grant her ability to another (lower costing) unit. Dot can only grant her order on a 5 or 6 (i.e. 67% of the time it doesn't function) and it HAS to be an assault order and Dot HAS to have received an Assault order herself.

So individually each of these abilities look like a bargain.


BUT FOR JUST 7 POINTS YOU GET ALL THREE!!!


Now even if you do not field both twins you get +1 to attack and the ability to receive two orders. That alone is worth 7 points.

The fact that if you field both 'Mechs you get to do 4 orders per turn at the cost of 2 from your total is, well, just plain nasty. You spend 280 points on units that get to receive 4 orders, leaving you still with one order to give the remaining 170 points. Now expending some points on Gear (say, Pulse and Double rate?) you have 124 points. I can think of a lot I can do with 124 points if I only have to give it 1 order a turn.

These 'Mechs may not have a superb range but do remember they effectively can run 24" and then shoot at the cost of 1 heat. That means they have a 34" Assault range but worse, from where most 'Mechs need to be to Assault them, these machines can run into the rear arc and shoot with +3 to their attack. You are looking at units who will very often get a first strike with a 14 attack.

There is a reason Double Rate can only be used with a Ranged Combat Order. These pieces effectively make it usable with an Assault, but one costing virtually no heat and with no Assault defense modifier.

The possibility of encountering these 'Mechs will mean you cannot build without considering the possibility you will encounter them. No piece should have enough power that it is that game altering.

Now this will probably get me attacked by a few who "play the game as it stands" but I am seriously concerned about these two. Enough that I felt I had to present the facts.

So here is the challenge, if you don't think these are overpowered, explain why.

another thing their heatdials are clean for 4 clix, they could perform 2 turns with 2 actions and not be in trouble, or receive 2 assault order even and no stress yet, next turn they cool and attack again etc

good thing the mechs dont live long (still 10 clix) but try hitting em when they attack you and then move out of range etc etc. with a 10"evade and +2 from pilots they basicly have the field all to themselves.

Actually:
Glory: Run
Fortune: Run
Fortune: Pulse
Glory: Double Rate

leaves... Fortune 2 clicks down and Glory 1 click down.

Next turn:
Glory: Double Rate
Fortune: Shoot
Fortune: Run
Glory: Run

and Fortune is 4 clicks down and rolling for an ineffectual ammo explosion and shut down whilst Glory is 3 clicks down. However, Glory is 24" and Fortune 22" from where they started the turn. If you placed water well you could potentially be better off.

In short, you absolutely have to be in a position to badly hurt one or both 'Mechs for that brief moment they are in range. Otherwise you are losing units and cannot react. This is going to require a lot of thought (and luck) on behalf of whoever is facing the twins.

I chose Pulse and Double Rate just to accentuate how much damage these units can inflict in one turn. Potentially 14 points between them IN ONE TURN with the right Faction Pride. There are ways to deal that much damage with other unit combinations but none with the range of these, the likelihood of this from a purely statistical standpoint nor this simple to pull off.

Sure the 'Mechs are easy to hurt. The saving grace (the one saving grace) is that the aforementioned manoeuvre can, if it fails, lead to the loss of one or both of the Twins. But Turtling and waiting for the Twins to come to you is no help if they wander around the battlefield and wait until 2 minutes from time.

I, for one, would relish the challenge of facing the Twins. I'm sure many of the other experienced players around the world feel the same way. I am not worried about how it affects the likes of Trev or Elite. I am worried about how they could affect the "grassroots".

The last thing we need is yet another combo that seems like an unsurmountable obstacle to new players. Especially since these WILL price on ebay at around $30+ apiece.

$30? I bet it'll climb to above $50, for Glory at least.

I think that the twins are only worth fielding together in 600. In 450 you should be better off with Glory/Gloria/Double Rate by itself.

It'd be easy to get sidetracked, so without going into an elaborate explanation I would say that you underrate the twins. You cite the most intuitively obvious example (both twins, doublestrike SE, +damage Pride, first strike) but then you imply that their vulnerability following this strike makes them a surmountable problem for experienced players like Trev (?) and Elite (expletive deleted). But their real strength lies in their flexibility; if I'm running them with +damage pride and you're set up to crush me if I first strike with them, I'm not going to first strike with them. I'll wait until there's a unit that I can kill without fear of retaliation and then kill it. 3-caps with a Kelswa inside might as well have a big bullseye painted on 'em. RHDMs cost so much that they can be out-point-efficiented.

I think it's clear their ability is way undercosted, at least from what we've seen. Bear in mind, though, that the costs we get in previews and even the stats posted in the units section are not always accurate, and are rarely if ever corrected (the HK Zeus still has the wrong heat dial. X-Pulse is still listed as costing 42. LE Kolchak is listed as costing 27, not 30-something. Et cetera.). So it may be a little premature to assume that the given price is the correct price.

That being said, I think the ability to take double orders by itself is worth 30 points. If there were a gear that allowed double orders on lights for 30 points it would be the best light gear ever printed.

I can think of some ways to slow em down a bit. Depends on the army's pulse and double rate make them pretty much chancless vs. RHDM.

If you add a killer 2 mech light army vs. RHDM vs. TD vs. Arty vs. Shiro armies it woudnt bother anyone as such if they are truly dominant over the other army types.

If I find I cannot fight them with tactics ill probaly start using them myself. That is a defeat of such I suppose.

On them being undercosted is hard to say the extra ability if you get both em means little in the way of support. In 600 they are deadlier in my mind.

The extra order will make the difference. Compairing them with what exists is tough specialy as you cannot get a bunch of MW player to agree on the effectiveness of pieces anyway.

My point is that each one of the three abilities is cheap at 7 points compared to other units. But with these you get all 3 abilities at a ridiculously cheap price. It's like someone thought up a pilot ability too many and they decided to share them between two pilots.

I know you don't have much support in 450 if you field them both. I was just taking examples and building on them, with particular emphasis on the most damaging possible combination. However you could stick IT on them. Then a 24 Decoy won't be out of reach.

It may have got buried but I did actually state that 7 points for a 2 action 'Mech is cheap. Especially compared to what Katsuro Sutoku does to himself. And especially combined with a +1 attack against 'Mechs. With a few exceptions, an 11 attack is fine against tanks but 12 is very helpful against 'Mechs (power creep? what power creep?).

The main pieces that stand up well against the Twins are the "usual culprits" (Shiros, Peacemaker, 3D, etc). But what this does is accentuate the already competitive builds. There are some very nice pieces in the game that can usually just about cut it against Shiros but against the Twins they will be hammered. If you like, these are counter-counter units gone awry.

Incidentally, my point is and always has been that there is a gap between experienced players and newer players. I wasn't trying to show favouritism with my choice of example players or imply they are the best. I could as easily have used Mizerama, noeticist or any one of a number of other names familiar to the Realmsgoers. Any Worlds attendee would do. Any regular army reviewer. Any US Nats top ranked player. Anyone ranked highly in the World. All I was trying to depict was people familiar with all the units. And I picked from the (large) pool of players who are more knowledgeable than I am. And I picked two people I suspected would disagree with me.

I dont disgaree as such dear Kotch you are quiete right in your concerns.

But I can not give a final judgement until I have seen the effects in action.

Till them for me it is to much conjecture. I can remeber people analyzing the point cost formulas of mechs and the conclusion was repairpoints costed points.

I worry about the game tactics first the rules second and the logic last......

You have good and valid points, but they are for WK not for me.

Regards
E130

BTW Kotch make sure you have some free time on 21 to 23 april some European MW thingie in Paris ill be there and so will plenty of others.

It didn't get buried. I was agreeing with you, not trying to assimilate your ideas. I just wanted to refine it a bit by pointing out that if the purpose of this thread is as states (to argue that 7 points is way undercosted) then we're being a bit premature, since we haven't seen the card yet and previews aren't 100% reliable. At best, we can try to set a baseline for what would be a fair cost so that we can see what the ability (or abilities, if you prefer) is actually costed at. So:

I think 7 points for +1 attack against 'Mechs is a very generous price, but not gamebreakingly so. Pilot abilities have been consistently moving up in strength and it looks like there are other domination powers that are similarly costed for their effectiveness.

I think the extra orders for fielding both together should be very cheap. Even making it totally free wouldn't be unbalancing, since in order to get it you have to run dual Lights with low base damage output.

I'm going to stand by my arbitrary costing of double orders at 30 points. Probably it should cost more in the abstract since it doesn't cost a gear slot, but anything less would pretty solidly be unbalanced.

So I would say that the bare minimum cost for the twins' ability (or abilities) should be 37 (over and above their base costs & recruits, of course). Anything less and they're undercosted.

otherwise join us in Essen next may (so far i believe ECC was succesfull enough for a rerun

though i dont consider myself as a top player or tactican i play for fun, and find it fun playing with people from all over europe pick up a tactic or two from opponents who play different styles of gameplay.

but back to the twins, i think its gonna get to be expensive aquiring both , though chances when buying a case you could pull them both (though know the more "i know what i want so i ll buy singles" type of people who want them will pay big bucks on ebay, still lightfoot and rising sun go for $30+ close to $50 last time i looked. so imagine what the pair would cost together?

(btw elite heard any word from badbart yet? or did he totally quit and left the mw scene?)

I agree with your costing for double orders, Cloudmoon. Either 30 points or it should have some other restriction.

On the attack, a +3 attack costs 30 points compared to 16 for a +2. So that's a 14 point cost. Allowing for the fact that it doesn't apply against infantry and vehicles I still think 7 is a tad cheap but as you say, hardly game breaking. In fact 7 points, +1 attack and the free order would not be too unbalanced. I wholeheartedly agree it is the "two orders" bit that breaks them because they can attack and run away. Or run and attack. Or vent then attack. Or run away and vent. etc etc.

It's the flexibility and the fact that nothing can touch them.

Remember to bring multiple grapple units when facing these. :)

Well, part of the +1 attack is that the units they're placed in have a base of 9. So +1 attack only bumps them up to 12, which is more or less standard. If the 'Mechs had a base attack of 10, it'd be dangerously undercosted (IMHO). It's kinda like how Graves' ability is super sweet, but in order to get it you have to field Quantum, who isn't. Glory & Fortune are decent lights but without their pilots they don't hold a candle to the Hellions,

Actually, I don't disagree.

They're undercosted. End of discussion.

The easiest fix, I feel, would be to make it so that they can only be given two orders per turn ONLY if their twin is present in the same build. That still makes them troublesome, but much easier to overcome, since the opposing army now has options. ~290 pts. worth of Light 'Mech can be overcome in a 450 build, even if the 'Mechs are running all the hell over the field.

That fix means that now, if you run Glory alone, it ONLY gets +1 attack against 'Mechs. That's a 7 pt. ability.

And once again, Kotch, fantastic analysis.

While it's a great analysis, I never gave these two units that much thought. For the points you spend into each of them (2 Mechs +2 pilots then gear) are they still undercosted?

IMO anything that gets players to play two light Mechs, and still try thier hearts out to beat the best player at a venue, isn't underpriced.

Still I'll wait to see them in action before sending down my final call.

Great thread Kotch.

But you don't have to field them both to be able to give one two orders a turn. While dual Lights with or without gear is a tricksy strategy in 450 (that's why I don't think the free order ability that requires both Nyxes should have to cost anything to be balanced), one tricked-out Light +support is highly versatile and verifiably competitive.

Even fielding both together is a very powerful strategy that really chills competitive play. I continue to be baffled by those who don't worry about these 'Mechs.

Consider, even in 450, you have a guaranteed 5 orders a turn.

That's like guaranteeing you can succeed on two command rolls each and every turn. At the cost of 14 points.

Add to the fact that 280 points (+ gear) gets to act twice a turn, that means your force behaves like it cost around 280 + 50% of 280 (allowing for using some of those orders to vent) so 420 plus 170. So 590 points of activity on your side of the table against 450 on the other.

That's without using Gear to boost the effectiveness of the 'Mechs still further.