I have a Foiled face down in my resource row. My opponent has Mutant Nation face up on the board. He plays Children of the Atom, targeting Magneto. I respond by playing Foiled on Mutant Nation.

Now I know how this would work in Magic - my Foiled would kill Mutant Nation, making Magneto an illegal target for Children of the Atom, negating it.

Of course I'm not 100% sure if that is how it would work in VS.

Same question could be asked about Common Enemy and playing a Clobberin' Time on Dr. Doom.

I think I'm right in saying that Children of the Atom would still work, since it was legal at the time it was played. Basically the effect of recovering Magneto was created at that time - it just waits in the chain to be resolved, regardless of what happens to Magneto or his team affiliation in between.
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URUGUAYAN RECIPES

well, lets look at how your example would start a chain, then build on the chain, and finally resolve from the chain:

opponent has priority. begins chain:

1) plays mutant nation (team-up effect generated)
2) plays children of the atom to magneto (recovery of magneto generated)

passes

you have priority. build onto chain:

3) play 'foiled' on mutant nation (destruction of mutant nation and foiled generated)

you pass

now the chain resolves:
3) both foiled and mutant nation are destroyed
2) magneto is recovered
1) team-up effect continues through the end of this chain, then goes away

once an effect's cost is paid and it goes onto the chain, the effect will be felt even if the character/object generating that cost is stunned, destroyed, etc.

Got it.

So basically, there is zero way of negating an effect without specifically playing a card that says "Negate target effect".

I like the rule, but I know there will be arguements from the Magic crossover players.

Yeah, it's the same as the Pyro discussion in that other thread.
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Vapir No2

That does not sound right to me at all!

I am not saying I am right but I will need someone from UD to change my mind.

Magneto is stunned.
Magneto owner plays children of the atom (pays the cost to play the card) then passes.
Other owner plays foiled on the Mutant nation then passes.
Magneto owner passes
Time for resolution

Foiled destroys mutant nation
Children of the atom hits Magneto and finds him not an X-man and fails.

I could be wrong but that is the only thing that makes sense.

The point is that CotA has already hit Magneto and found him to be an X-Man when it was played. It's just waiting to resolve in the chain, ie. to recover him.
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Grape ape

Did CotA hit magneto or did it check to make sure it was valid? I see you point and I don't want to sound like a troll. I just want to get this right so thanks for not getting grumpy with me.

Example.

Let's say I want to play one two punch on my character.

The way I understand it the card checks to see if I am the attacker. If yes put the effect on the chain, not put the effect on the person. If somehow someone could make that character the defender then the effect would not be valid when the chain resolved and it would be an illegal move. Boom no more one two punch.

What I am hearing you say is that as soon as I play the card and if it is a valid move it happens. If that is so then why have a complicated chain? Why not just put all the effects in a pile and let them resolve in any order?

I do not think it would work like this Tourch. Awhile back their was a discussion of if you activated Kelly, and while his ability was on the chain someone played Gamma Bomb, Kelly's ability would check for the amount of damage at time of resolution.

1. Kelly on the chain.
2. I play Gamma Bomb

1. Gamma bomb resolves removing all characters from play.
2. Kelly's ability resolves checking the current state of the game, sees no army sentinels and resolves for none.

I would think this works the same way. Playing Children of the Atom places the ability of "Recover stunned X-men Character" on the stack. Foiled hits the stack targeting Mutant Nation. When 'Children' resolves it's target no longer an X-man so Magneto does not recover.

Simply

1.Play Children targeting stunned Magneto paying all costs.
2. Play foiled targeting Mutant Nation paying all costs.

Resolve

1. Foiled removes Mutant Nation. Brotherhood are no longer X-men.
2. Resolve Children Of the Atom's ability, since Magneto is no longer an X-man, (which is the required clause of an character's recovery) nothing happens.

If you look at the Metagame article about Children of the Atom it implies this much, when it talks about this card responding to 'Finishing Move'. If you play Finishing Move on my X-man, and I respond with 'Children of the Atom' when Finishing move resolves it's target is no longer valid due to the fact he is not stunned, so he does not go to the Ko pile.

I agree with your last statement once an effect goes on the stack it resolves, however if the state of the card it resolves on changes between the time it is added to the chain and the point that the chain resolves, the effect does nothing. If Gambit targets my Sentinel and I Stun the targeted Sentienl using Orbital Sentinel Base in response to kill your Stunned Dazzler. When the chain resolves,

1. My sentinel is stunned I take damage equal to his cost.
2. The target of Orbital Sentianl base is KO'ed.
3. Gambit's ability resolves doing nothing since his target is already stunned.

Sorry if I am overexplaining, here. I hope this is right and I believe using the currently available data this fits in Alex's current clarifications and the info given by devlopers in their sneak peeks and gaming articles on metagame. All of this could change based on the FAQ if they decide that abilities do not check the state of the game on resolution, they only check when they are played. If that is the way things work however I see no need for the chain. If your oppenent cannot change the state of the cards everything would resolve as played. The chain would only be useful in combat.... Good luck, hopefully the faq will arive soon.

This is the post from Alex that agrees with "Effects check for legality before they resolve."

http://www.vsrealms.com/forum/showth...=6177#post6177

"Once an effect is put on the chain, it exists independently of its source. Removing the source usually does nothing to an effect.

If all of the targets of an effect are illegal when the effect resolves, the effect is negated. For example if you KO the guy Gambit is trying to stun, Gambit's effect is negated (by the game due to illegal targets). You don't get a refund of costs if an effect is negated (i.e. you won't get to ready Gambit)."

Man, I can see this is a huge point of contention as a ton of threads are about this.

The intrepretation that Mitchell posted makes the most sense to me.

I think that once people can get Magic out of their heads and VS. in there the confusion will go away.

These two sentences:

1) Effects check for legality before they resolve.

2) Once an effect is put on the chain, it exists independently of its source. Removing the source usually does nothing to an effect.

These should be the final word on these questions. They answers a lot of my questions.

(1) is the opposite of how Magic, which is fine with me, and (2) is actually the same as Magic works so that's cool as well.

It's the same as the Quicksilver question. You use CotA, it checks for legality, it's all good. You resolve the chain, the target isn't legal, so nothing happens.
As big a pain as it can be, any other translation negates the chain concept, making it an effects happen as they are played game. Not that that would be bad, just that it isn't how this works.

here is the exact text from Children of the Atom:

Card Text:
As an additional cost to play Children of the Atom, discard an X-Men character card from your hand.
Recover target stunned X-Men character.

i would break this down into the following:

cost: As an additional cost to play Children of the Atom, discard an X-Men character card from your hand. (plus required number of resources to meet threshold)

effect: Recover target stunned X-Men character.


here is the exact text from Mutant Nation:

Card Text:
Play only if you control a Brotherhood chracter and an X-Men character.
Draw a card.
Ongoing: Cards you control, as well as cards in your hand, deck, and KO'd pile that have either the Brotherhood or X-Men team affiliation are considered to have both team affiliations.

i would break this down into the following:

cost: Play only if you control a Brotherhood chracter and an X-Men character. (plus required number of resources to meet threshold)

effect: Draw a card.
Ongoing: Cards you control, as well as cards in your hand, deck, and KO'd pile that have either the Brotherhood or X-Men team affiliation are considered to have both team affiliations.


it appears that the point of contention is since mutant nation is not in play when the effect of children of the atom resolves, the effect should do nothing. children of the atom is not the issue here. its cost is paid and its effect is on the chain. its effect will resolve unless negated, or unless its target becomes illegal. the issue is whether or not the effect of mutant nation is still in play. whether mutant nation was flipped to start the chain, or its ongoing effect was felt as children of the atom was flipped to start the chain is irrelevant. the minute the chain was started, the effect of mutant nation existed on the chain. there is no issue that the cost of mutant nation was paid, therefore the effect is in existance at the start of the chain. if the effect exists at the start of the chain, the effect will continue to exist through resolution of the chain regardless of the source of the effect. when children of the atom resolves, the team-up effect still exists, since the chain it started on is still active. therefore, magneto is recovered.

You seem to be forgetting about the text of Foiled. "KO target ongoing plot twist and KO this card". This is the difference. Magneto is no longer an X-Man. He was a legal target, but now he is not. The effect was paid for and placed on the chain, and there was a legal target... So far, so good. When it comes to resolution, however, the target is no longer legal. I don't see how this is any different from the classic Puppet Master/Pyro scenario.
You were legal, allow play to proceed, you aren't legal, nothing happens.
Mutant Nation doesn't put an effect on the chain. It puts a condition on your characters. When the source is removed, the condition is removed. If you use a Kaboom on my Yancy Street, are you saying that you still can't target my stunned characters with plot twists? It's the same thing. The go dig for Things issue is a seperate effect, and it can be placed on a chain, but the first feature is not, and is why it cannot be stopped by Global Domination.


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