1) When are costs paid?

2) When is the effect generated?

I've been working under the impression that the effect is generated when costs are paid and that costs are paid upon announcement.

Is this incorrect?

cost and effects are basically generated straight away but don't resolve until the end of a chain.

Costs that aren't part of the effect are paid upon generation.

Some effects have some type of 'payment' required such as Jean Grey and Darkoth, those are part of the effect and are done upon resolution (and may be optional depending on the wording of the ability).

Rule of thumb:

If it is before the -> do it in order to put the effect on the chain. If it is after the -> do it when the effect resolves.

In general though, you pay the cost in order to add the effect to the chain, unless the 'pay' is part of the effect (i.e. "Whenever ... you may pay". The "whenever" puts the "you may pay" on the chain, so you pay at the time of resolution).

That's what I've been thinking but in the discussion on Avalon Space Statiom, it's been pointed out that Alex Charsky says the effect goes on the chain prior to selecting targets or paying costs.

Needless to say, I'm a tad confused.

Well what alex said makes no sense to me. Its like going to the grocery store to buy food, and then when you get up to the counter you see if you have the money to pay for the food, rather than checking your money before you got there. Why would you be able to add effects to the chain before you knew if you could pay the cost?

The reason it makes sense is because you would have to determine if you could infact pay the costs first, before you could even attempt to activate.

In a sense you MUST check your money before you get there, or else you can't even attempt to shop.

If the cards are to be believed, the effect gets placed on the chain after the costs are paid and the targets are selected.

If the game operates otherwise, I'd like to hear about it in more detail.

It must be determined that you have the right activation requirements before you can declare that you are using an effect.

I'm truly not following this.

If I can't can't pay all costs involved, I cannot generate the effect to begin with.

That seems far more clean and logical than generating the effect then checking to see if I can pay for it.

And again, the cards say "Pay this -> do that" so I see nothing to support the idea of "Do that if you can pay this", generally speaking.

BTW, let's get specific. In truth, the only time this issue matters is when the effect is targeted.

So using the Avalon Space Station example yet again, there are three requirements:

1) Activation
2) Discard
3) Target selection

I assert that the activation, discard and target selection are simultaneous and all prior to placing the effect on the chain.

I'm open to the idea that I'm mistaken but if somone is going to take the time to say so, I'd appreciate a thorough explanation using the game mechanics as a reference.

I appologize, I'm at work Zaxx, so i don't have much time to sit down and write you a thorough explaination.

I will check back later, and post then.

Novastar, you need to reference Alex's post in order to see what we don't think makes sense.

I also posted on that older post and I agree with Zaxx that all costs are done simultaneously with the targeting of effects.

I don't understand why people are having such a hard time with Avalon Space Station. To me it's very straightforward, in order to use its ability, you have to activate and discard a card, but at the same time you need to name which card(s) to target, since the discarded card isn't in the KO pile yet, you can't target it because it's 'in transit'.

ok... i'm going to go out on a limb and try to extrapolate what i think is coming down the pike from my limited knowledge in Magic (which is a LOT like this game).

let's first look at Alex's text:

put the effect on the chain
(do a number of things which aren't relevant)*
choose targets
(do a number of things which aren't relevant)*
determine costs
pay costs


ok, there's two line items he has left off.

first, if you play Magic, you'll remember something called 'Kicker' costs. you need to determine whether you are going to pay for the kicker, before you pay for the cost. if the game eventually has something along this line, you cannot pay the costs, until you determine whether you are going to pay for the kicker or not.

also, you need to put the effect in the chain FIRST, in order to determine if the effect has a 'kicker' type cost or not.

on another thought... what if there is a cost for multiple targets that the player can choose. you need to declare the targets, determine the number of targets, and then total up the costs for the multiple targets BEFORE you pay the cost.

so after you've done all the decisions (i.e., targeting, etc.) you total up the cost, and pay for the effect at the end.

in the MtG comp rules this is section 409. it all makes sense, and has a logical progression through it. i'm sure we'll all see a similar section in the VS comp rules.

i'm sure these two omitted items are something along the lines of "determine number of targets" and "determine additional costs, if any".