I love limited play (draft more than sealed but I'll happily play either). However the 1 thing that sorta ruins it for me is that I've heard lots and lots of reports of people cheating in limited play by bringing in outside cards or trading cards w/ other players. This is at all levels of play (PCQs, Pre-releases and PCs). It's to the point where when I run into an opponent w/ an amazing deck and I don't know better that I question whether they might have cheated. Now I'm not one to think that just because I lost, my opponent must have cheated, but when you see a guy playing in his 2nd pre-release that has a near mono-JLA deck you start to wonder.

The pre-release I went to on sunday had no checks to see if anyone was cheating. No decklists, no trading of packs, no anything. I'd love if we could trust everyone to be honest but I don't think this fits w/ reality. People really value the "swag" they get at these things and while I'm sure most of the people playing this game wouldn't go to the extent of cheating to get it, I'm also sure there are some people who would.

It gets even worse at the PC level when you're playing for thousands of dollars. I don't know of anyone who cheated but I've heard tales of other people who did and they're reasonably reliable. I mean how many deck checks do they do at PCs? It doesn't seem like very many. It's a pretty decent gamble that you won't be checked in that 1 round.

What can be done to curb this? I think it's a very serious issue that needs to be looked at. Are more deck checks the answer? Could we atleast check our opponent's deck after a PC draft game to see if all their cards have the right stamps? I think atleast something more needs to be done.

I would have to agree. When a deck is just so cohesive and basically all one affiliation it makes you wonder. I know whenever I play Sealed I never get all of one affiliation and even when I get a large majority of characters sharing one or two affiliations, there's still a decent amount of characters that you have to use that "bastardize" your deck. Most recently in a draft I can remember an individual that had a very nice Faces of Evil deck. He had multiple copies of FOE along with an entire curve of T-Bolts and MOE characters. I wanted to try and draft FOE myself but I just didn't see the cards come around, so I was wondering how he managed to put one together like that.

In draft, getting a deck like that FoE deck is fully possible, if you know what to grab and you're in the position to take it. For example, I made a powerful JLI draft deck by grabbing up the Martian Manhunter and Crimson Foxes passed to me quickly.

Sealed pack cheating can happen. In my area, it seems that everyone was pretty honest, but it can happen. PCQ's are a good deal more serious about watching for it, but it can always happen. Some people will just get good packs, though. My JLA sealed packs were weird, in that I'd gotten essentially a near-perfect curve for either the JLA & JLI or the IG & SS. Well, I picked the good guys and got pwned. lol I went 3/2, but still!

Deck checks done randomly through the draft event would help curb it somewhat, but someone able to switch the cards in should be able to switch them out too. Really, though, what is the difference going to be between doing this in a sealed deck and a constructed one? If someone'll cheat, he'll cheat.

The difference between cheating in sealed and constructed is HUGE. I mean in sealed you can replace your 3-4 worst plot twists w/ combat pumps and make your deck significantly better. Replace 3 or 4 of your sub-par characters w/ better ones and you can have the same effect. Do both and you have yourself a big advantage.

This type of cheating isn't going to happen in constructed. You're already playing the best deck you can possibly play (I hope) so changing cards isn't gonna really benefit you much (though it could slightly). You could add some cards which might help you in your upcoming matchup but for the most part you don't know what that matchup will be and will usually not have the time to make any significant adjustments. Any cheating that might occur at the table can be noticed by an opponent or a spectator (or a judge).

As far as 10ks and PCs are concerned, isn't it true that you can ask for a deck check on an opponent after the game ends? If so, I don't think that would really be being a dick to just ask for verification, especially if your opponent has a ridiculously unbelievable set of cards...

Although, it sometimes is just that, a ridiculously good, well-deserved and drafted, set of cards. I know that at PC Indy I drafted a RIDICULOUS Avengers/Thunderbolts team attack deck that had everything you could want in it, and just had amazing synergy. But still, any pro player knows that cheating exists, so if you truly care about this game, do what you can to stop it. If that means sometimes "accusing" a player by asking for a deckcheck, hopefully that player realizes that you're just trying to maintain the integrity of the game, and not being a dick.

At my pre-release I heard plenty of this guy is a cheater, so watch out....but I never saw anything suspicious

I hit a decent curve with IG...supplemented by SS...and a few bastardized 6/4 drops...

I went 3-1...not bad out of 30 people (bigger than my last PCQ)

The only cheating I have ever seen is people drawing extra cards...or keeping track of their life wrong...Didnt see any of this at the pre-release...but I did see trading before the event was over...but not among the top players

At the PC all you have to do is look for stamps. People can still trade cards between themselves but you will catch the more obvious idiots/cheaters.

I wish there were a LOT more deckchecks at high-level events. The potential for cheating in Limited even at the PC is pretty scary. The fact that they haven't caught anyone at it either speaks for the honesty of the players or the lack of deckchecks, and I'm not enough of an optimist to really believe the former.

I actually meant the mechanical process of doing it, but you're all too right about the difference in results. There's not muich else to do but keep a close watch on all the cards. If you've got a sufficiently large and respected judging staff, you can have the cards for a sealed pack event be pre-registered.

If not for the fact that the cards become worthless, a distinct marking would make cheating nearly impossible. I can imagine a custom-made hole cutter or some sort of stamp. It sucks to do it, but it solves that problem pretty soundly.

As someone who played in back to back pre-releases [Montreal and Ottawa] I was the person with the best 'chance' of cheating ... especially as neither bothered with doing deck lists. Both areas do deck lists, pack registration and moving things around, etc ... when they do PCQs. For pre-releases, it's much harder as, outside of a few cases for the first event, there shouldn't be any 'other' cards. They took a risk in the later events but there wasn't any cheating as far as I could tell.

And, I can say that you'll often see packs that 'seem' like cheating.

Getting both 4 drop Batman and 5 drop Black Canary, along with L-Ron and Controller Sanction to be able to succesfully support a low resource strategy is cool.

Getting Steel and the Atlantean Trident.

Or Hawkman and Nth Metal along with Beetle to fetch it.

The problem with checking for cheating is that a 'smart' player could easily 'add' a combo into the deck which wouldn't seem overly suspicious.

However, I did in one event, get a curve where I played only JLI and JLA characters from 1 to 7, without needing to add any characters to fill out the curve. Along with that, I had Hero's Welcome, Reform the League and Magnificent Seven to use with the various Ally effects. [Not to mention both a 4 and 6 drop Batman, which would allow me to grab both with Hero's Welcome]. It's the kind of pack which would 'seem' like someone was cheating if you didn't open it yourself.

So, the only way to really work it out is via pack registration [with 'random' distribution of the packs afterwards] and then registering the deck list which can be double checked later on. In a 'big' event environment, even a PCQ since there is still a chunk of change on the line, you can't be too careful.

But, the other side of the coin is, you have to make sure your suspicions are well founded before you call a judge for a deck check, as doing it too often could result in punishment for unsportsmanlike play.

If you suspect it, its probably best to question the player aside, because if they are cheating, it'll likely scare them out of cheating. Actually, maybe that isn't even a good idea. You're going to end up with a problem no matter what. I'm not sure how to approach the situation at all...

I agree that having a good deck does not mean foul play; especially in cases where someone is drafting Kang, for instance, it's not out of the question that everyone will let them get a Kang curve. I've heard about stores where everyone stayed away from Squadron for a few weeks, letting in some scary draft builds. At my own, everyone was so captivated by Squadron and FoE, actually, that some great Avengers/T-Bolts stuff slipped through. Is getting Cobalt Man out on turn 4 a few times suspicious? What about having Deadly Conspiracy together with Mt. Charteris? Or is it only suspicious that no one else wanted Black Widow and Warbird? None of them are farfetched, I'd say, so what about a few of them together, does that set off alarms? There are way too many factors involved to determine what deck is too good, far as I can see.

Having been to a pre-release that has the full-on pack registration and re-arranging, I'll say that it's not the most fun part of the tournament. It's certainly safer, yes, but it was also slightly confusing for those who didn't know that that's what was happening, and a little time-consuming. Let alone the fact that it was painful to pass on some of the packs.

It was also somewhat bothersome to have to call over an official when you found out that your opponent had marked down Thunder Jet instead of Quinjet on the checklist---the official modified my checklist with no problems, but it could be dangerous, too. If whoever filled out your packs' list checked off the 3-drop Captain America instead of the 6-drop, is that more suspicious? Or if Avengers Disassembled is checked-off when you have Avengers Assemble, where both are rares...it's not a hard mistake to make on the alphabetical list, but possibly a huge change in your deck.

All this is to say, even the secure methods have downsides and loopholes. If everyone had to write down the contents of a draft pack when they first opened it, and then pass the list in to a Judge, I think it would probably be safe, yeah. But you could get the same problems, which could really be the same loopholes---you've got a different Iron Man than the draft-opener wrote down, and maybe it helped you win the game. Did you cheat, or did he make a mistake?

Not meaning to shift the discussion but... I'd really rather we not focus on whether or not cheating occurs. It does occur, you all must realize this or you're living in a hole. We can debate how often it occurs, but really who cares? The question is, are we doing enough to curtail cheating? What more can be done? What more should be done?

I know that no one likes registering a deck, it's not the fun part of the tournament. Judges don't like doing deck checks either, but if we don't do any of these things then cheaters being to prosper and that's far worse for the long run of our game than some time spent registering a deck.

I've personally never seen any cheating around my area here, but I do get extremely lucky with my packs sometimes. On the GL preview, I managed to pull 2 Ring Has Chosen, 2 Tomar Re, 1 Kyle(2), Sinestro (GLOK), and Two Face. And in a sealed PCQ, I got myself 2 Faces of Evil and a bunch of swarm support in my 5 packs.

Honestly, I don't think it's easy to tell if someone is cheating or not. Really, the only good indication is what has been mentioned before, a lot of GOOD cards from the same affiliation (I've gotten 20 Thunderbolt guys in my sealed packs before, but only half were playable).

Also, watch to make sure they don't have too many rares in there, that's a clear one too if they're that stupid, or too many uncommons (there's only 15 in their pool) or too many foils.

Other ways: lots of judges walking around, decklists, cameras (if you want to go that far) Compare decks to decklist, etc

Ultimately, it can become a logistical thing.

There are ways to ENSURE no cheating [at least in terms of ensuring that the cards being PACKED in sealed are on the level].

However, you'll have to balance this against how much judge/T.O. support you have, how many players, venue restrictions [i.e. time], etc.

If you had a LOT of judges and/or a LOT of time, you could be very meticulous with the deck registration stuff. Check all the registered packs to ensure that they've been checked correctly, redistribute the packs, check the decklists handed in to make sure they are legal, etc.

However, it becomes a question of whether increasing delays for the tournament, or stretching the tournament staff thin, etc is worth the enhanced 'security'. For many players, they would rather 'risk' being cheated than go through the hassle of spending nearly an hour before their first game.

And, hypothetically, there can still be 'cheating' in this situation ... although it would be more the matter of someone say ... swiping a money rare and inserting a different rare in it's place. However, deck registration is often hard to cheat, since you do it in plain view of a few other players. It would be quite difficult to slide in extra cards [have them up your sleeve?] ... since you won't be allowed to have your 'other' cards at the table with you, etc.

Anyone that is really concerned with cheating just needs to be willing to call their opponent's on it. If the player is polite about it, and doesn't have a reputation as an unsportsmanlike player who will call judges to try to get a win via game loss for their opponent.

I really wonder what calling a judge would really do for you. Your opponent has an incredible sealed deck, every bomb rare you could possibly want. You call over a judge and what are they gonna do? What can they do? Unless they're dumb enough to put 6 rares in their deck, there's no way to know they're cheating.

I agree, it is a logistical thing. However I feel when players start to get turned away because they feel they can't win because others will cheat, you have a problem. Would you rather turn off a few players cause they don't wanna go through the deck registration process, or turn away a few players cause they think nothing will be done about cheating?

UDE has obviously become involved in how prizes are distributed at pre-releases, I'd like to see them become involved with how cheating is curbed at them as well. Although I'm really more interested to see them take greater efforts to curtail cheating at the PC level.