Although I agree that VS is a bit daunting to beginners I really love its complexity. When I compare it to Magic and others it seems like comparing Go and chess...I like chess, but I love GO. It reminds me of Alastair Reynolds novel Redemption Ark where one of the characters can only function when able to maintain her mind by doing complex natural puzzles.

I think the emphasis on formations, combat, and reinforcing also give it a nice comic book feel that a fanboy like myself finds interesting. Having played many other CCGs I really see the difference in playing fun that VS creates.

I feel teaching new players Magic et al is almost as hard to do as VS...and has more to do with their general level of gaming experience than the game they are learning.

This is why I really don't like any of the movements towards an alternate VS...the real solution as others mentioned before is more appropriately costed search cards that allow people to play the characters they love and avoid the dreaded missed drop. If people hit all their drops and lose they rarely seem to dislike the game...if they miss alot of drops they have a hard time liking it.

chao

I think there's a lot less to explain in Magic.

I love the uber hard nature of VS formation and the many keywords.

I love feeling that I've outplayed someone when underdropping and that the equivilant in magic is screw or flood which is GG.

I hate the fact that Magic is still far more successful than VS.

I love the fact that VS is a better game and hate the fact that so many people deny it.

I agree... the VS engine is the best out there.

However... the best doesn't translate well to mass sales which is the primary goal right now in the wake of the OP Nega-Bomb.

Personally, I'm not looking to replace VS... it's just to create a streamlined version to get the "checkers" players into the game and then introduce them to the "chess" version once they're hooked. You can call it a portal... errr... gateway to VS.

Or maybe we should just put WoW loot cards in VS packs to spur sales. Heh.

Make a manditory Draft every month to boost sales. Before you enter City champs that month you have to partake in the Draft first. That would totaly sell product. Thats what I'm doing with my team from now on. We only buy from the store we play in. We play and play test there might as well help out the guy that gives us space to play. He gives us a disscount on case's of cards. So I try to help him out and he helps me out.

I still vote the best thing for VS right now is to target other non comic markets with things like TMNT and Transformers. Bring some new blood into the game..

VS is suppose to be an ENGINE, not just comic dedicated. They should try and expand it out a bit more just beyond heroes to bring new players in. I like the concept of essential collections but there needs to be some way to do legacy for it in the future.

Also essentials could possibly be a bit easier for newer players. For example if they did do a Transformer essential they definitely couldn't make it the complexity of Hellboy for newer players. I dont think there's ever been a Transformers TCG. I bet that would really drive people in.

(oh, and ban EoE. I want to see teams again)

First off ... TMNT actually is comic based.

Anyways, when branching out, going too far away from the superhero feel of the game will alienate alot of the current fanbase, which is made up of alot of comic-book fanboys (and fangirls).

TMNT is an example of something that could work, not because it was a comic, but because it actually fits the feel. There's a fun little Dreams & Desires set Guglio made up for them linked in the D&D board right now. They fight crime, they wear masks ... they're superheroes. It works. And there are even properties that aren't really "Superhero" based that may work ... within reason.

Transformers, on the other hand, is really a bad idea (no offense). I remember someone actually asking people at the MWS premier if they would want to see Transformers in VS and it was met with a resounding "NO!". Alot of the following of VS is because of it's theme and feeling ... and that is immensely lost when Dr. Strange teams up with Optimus Prime and the like everywhere. Trust me, a huge amount of players will just pack up shop if Luke Skywalker starts throwing his lightsaber at Batman.

Also, more licenses costs more money. So moderation (I.E., maybe a yearly essential collection? ;) ) is key.

I understand the point you're making, Access, but I personally think that
Dr. Strange teaming up with Bebop and Rocksteady is just as absurd from a "feel" perspective as the Sorceror Supreme comboing with Optimus Prime. (Hell, I even think the suggestion of Watchmen and most of the strict Vertigo lineup in Vs is the height of absurdity, but that's a topic for another time.) The thing is, "feel" is ultimately so subjective that any character/property/concept can be heartily made justifiable or casually dismissed on a fanboy's merest whim. I mean, they made X-Men/Star Trek novels for Christ's sake. (And more than one.)

We have to realize that the Vs system mechanics are an empty vessel in which any IP involving dueling scifi/fantasy guys can be poured into. The only reason the properties you mentioned wouldn't fit into Vs is because of what we've been conditioned to already. I'm personally against TMNT/Transformers/Barbie Vulva Warriors Vs as much as the next guy--at least as far as my own decks go. But if it could possibly sell product and make the Vs engine viable for the sets I do feel are flavor-worthy, then bring 'em on.

I consider a power issue here. Optimus Prime can't be any lower than a 7 drop. He's a 23 feet tall of leadership, beam-rifle toting machine with the power of the universe's spark. How the **** does anyone in comics stop that? Galactus vs. Unicron, gg Galactus. Galactus got herald of galactus, Unicron got super-powered Decepticons and BEAM Weaponary.

Mecha Genre in general shouldn't be in Vs. system. The power gap is too high. Sure Superman might be the most powerful non-deity superhero, but Turn-A Gundam can wipe out technology by himself.

I completely agree. But my point is that since we're dealing with funtime pretendy superhero cards (TM), everything--power levels, flavor-appropriateness, et cetera--is completely dependent on individual preferences. I have no experience with Gundam, but my preference states that Superman and a coalition of heroes could find a way to defeat Turn-A or whatever. DC heroes have reignited the sun. Hell, in the Silver Age, Supes batted around planets like they were Ping-Pong balls all by himself. My point is not to say Superman would beat Gundam; my point is to say that anyone's answer ultimately depends on the feelings they have for the property. It's exactly like asking, "Who would win in a knife fight, Jesus or Buddha?" You could say, "Well, Jesus would win because he'd come back from the dead if Buddha beat him," or you could say, "Once Buddha achieved enlightenment, Jesus' knife wouldn't hurt him, because there is no knife." (Neo: "Whoa.")

I said before I am opposed to Watchmen or strict Vertigo (Sandman, Preacher, et al) as Vs cards. I feel a card battle game, however immaculately constructed, fails to do these properties the justice they deserve, and the purpose of these properties is so far removed from anything resembling a card battle that they would not fit the format. But, hey, guess what. If Jeff Donais announced a Morpheus vs. Lucifer Smackdown EC set, and it made them money, and it provided them more money to make sets I do agree with, like I said, bring it on.

I understand the concept of having transformers and comic heroes on the same level is a little odd. Looking at it from a strict business perpective though what do you think would sell more?

A stand alone independent collection of hellboy or a stand alone independent collection of transformers? For which is there a bigger fan following?

Remember folks, the name of the game is making money. Not spread happiness and gameplay around the world. If they made a Transformers/TMNT/Star Wars set or collections i'm sure the forums would scream and complain about it for months. You know what though, in the end all the NEW players would probably make up for the lost ones.

Now to avoid abstract stuff like Jar Jar Binks teaming up with Krang and optimus prime it would be a little tricky. UD would have to put certain blocks in place on what could team up with what. Maybe a simple notice on the box insert that all included teams have loyalty. Maybe even just an overlying rule that Marvel/DC cannot mix with certain essentials. Compatible but not supported. Something like "UD announces a new TCG! Transformers to coincide with the new movie, this game will use the VS system engine just like its already famous Marvel/DC TCG" Comes with toy, movie art, etc, etc. Completely independed but still works together.

I do think this is an untapped resource that should at least be thought about. Got to try something. At this point you really dont have much to lose.

I think we all agree, Super Saiytan 2 Vegeto>DC characters.

I can't agree with a sentence I don't understand. ;)

If Two-Face can be a 7 drop then Optimus Prime can be a 5 drop. Don't disillusion yourselves.

A point I completely forgot to mention. No matter how powerful your Akiko Super Devil Monster Slay 7 Ako is, guess what? There's no way Superman is a 3-drop. (And an awful one at that)

Dr Strange isn't less than 5 anywhere.