ok here goes. If my two 3 drop team attack Fatality for the mutual stun does the 3 drop that fatality stun back KO.

similarly if my 4 drop with a beatdown goes into Thanos with his counter for a mutual stun does my 4 drop KO.

My thinking is no they don't ko because both character stun at the same time so the fatality / thanos text box would be in-active but my friend disagrees. so what happens?

thanks!
-Mike-

they ko ... on both situations. something to do with the game state and checking stuff i don't remember i jus know they ko

Yes, the power is in effect and they get KO'd. The stuns happen, the text is checked (thus KO'ing your character), the counters are removed.

In this case, the easy way to figure it out is to realize that the triggered power existed as the characters stunned, and thus triggered.

If a power is triggered by stuns, breakthrough, or leaving play, then it uses the moment right before that event occurs to determine if the power exists to be triggered. Tons of characters have powers that trigger if they themselves become stunned, and another group has powers that trigger off of leaving play; since the power disappears as part of the trigger event, it needs to check before the event. That particular interaction should be fairly intuitive, since otherwise the power couldn't function at all---now just expand it to any power that triggers off of those types of events, and you should be fine.

If a power is triggered off of anything else, then it checks the moment right after the event occurs to determine if the power exists to be triggered. For instance, a bunch of character trigger off of their own recoveries, like Creeper; since the power only comes into existence as part of the trigger event, it's gotta check after the event. Again, we know that Creeper's power works, so you just need to extend that line of thinking to everything that isn't on the first paragraph's list.

Thanos and Fatality can still trigger and cause KOs as a result of a stun-trade, for the same reason that Vengeance powers work, essentially. And if you keep in mind the Vengeance powers on one hand, and Creeper on the other, you can probably get a more intuitive handle on how/when each type of power checks.

Ok, maybe this is obvious to everyone else, but I had a question about Thanos. Please forgive me if this issue is one that is really clear to most of you. I just want to grasp the timing and effects the way they should play out in this scenario.


The way I understand it:
Thanos' ability requires that his COSMIC to be on, and when he stuns (which happens simultanious in combat with the attacker) the COSMIC counter is lost, which therefore turns the power off. COSMIC clearly states that it turns off when a character stuns, and since the character stuns, then the counter would be removed, and the character should NOT KO from Thanos. (at least the way I understand it)

A character cannot refer to its text regarding stunning a character until that action actually happens, and when it does, the COSMIC ability is off due to the stun that effected both characters. Further, their text is out of play as soon as they become stunned. (I just don't understnd how the COSMIC can be used when the counter is gone from the stun, and due to the stun the text is out of play.)

So, the way I see it, there are two reasons that Thanos could not KO a character. (Last sentence from paragraph above)


Now Help me out!
I understand what has been written here before I posted, and I have read the comprehensive rules (a tad dry, and somewhat confusing). I guess I am looking for WHERE in the rules that I can find and better understand why it is that the above scenario does not play out the way I have detailed it. I do not mind reading the rules, but after the hundreds of pages of info I have looked through, I am still not sure where this issue is detailed in the Comprehensive Rules.

Any help would be greatly appreciated: I just want to understand why I have it wrong=)


Thanks!


Sean 'The Baldman' Marinelli
"being 'The Baldman' is kinda like being The Batman, except without all the money, cool toys, or hair..."

Sean,

Section 505.4 Reads:

505.4 Once an effect is on the chain, it exists independently of its source. Removing the source of the effect does not negate the effect. Modifying the source of the effect does not modify the effect.

Section 506 the follows up with this:

506.1 Triggered effects can trigger at any time, even during a resolution of another effect or during a time that no player has priority.

So when the Effect goes on the chain it now exists outside of the stunned character, since the effect was triggered by the character (or characters) becoming stunned. The effect just checks to see if characters became stunned not if they are currently stunned. That's why even if you used another effect to recover those characters they would still be KO'ed.

Thanks!
And, wow, thats downright cool. (refering specifically to: "That's why even if you used another effect to recover those characters they would still be KO'ed")

I really appreciate the depth of your response, and I can say I now understand the 'why' to a situation that has confused me for so long.

(Cosmic as it turns out is a much cooler power than I ever thought it was.)


Sean The Baldman
"being 'The Baldman' is kinda like being The Batman, except without all the money, cool toys, or hair..."

The effect (at least those specific effects) don't check to see what the cards state is upon resolution of the effect just what it was upon going on the chain. However, a face up Modred could still keep your characters from being KO'ed since a can't takes precedence over a can.

You beat me to the question Mike. Now we know.

I don't have the CRD in front of me, but I'm fairly certain that 502.3 and 502.4 are also the sections I was drawing from above, detailing the two kinds of triggered powers.In the same vein, though, this line of thinking would make it impossible for a lot of powers to work at all---Donna Troy, Massacre, any of the characters with Vengeance powers. I'm glad you were asking about the reasoning, rather than just the result, so it's worth noting that the arguments against Thanos working would also apply to some much more straight-forward powers.

That's why 502.3 is vital, alongside the rule that effects are independent of their sources---it tells you that such triggered powers look to the moment before the stun occurs to determine if they exist at the proper time. A power that is triggered by characters stunning doesn't have to exist during the stun or after the stun, only right before.

I am one of those odd people who has to see something to understand it fully, so I went home after work and got out the cards we referenced (Thanos and Fatality). Then I printed out the newest copy of the comprehensive rules and both me and my g/f went over the situation and understand how it works now better than I did after just reading this yesterday. (I know, how awesome is it that my g/f plays Vs?)

I wanted to say thanks again!


Sean The Baldman
"being 'The Baldman' is kinda like being The Batman, except without all the money, cool toys, or hair..."