Reading the rules, it seemed pretty clear to me that outwit requires the character to have a clear line of fire and be within 10 squares of the target ... so that is not the same as having a range of 10. Therefore, I should have no problem outwitting a soaring or elevated character 6-10 squares away, even if I couldn't hit them with a ranged combat attack with a range of 10, because I am still within 10 squares. This all assumes, of course, that I have a clear line of fire to the target.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

For the soaring character, outwit has a range of 5 to that character.. So No.

To an elevated character, you can outwit with the full range of 10.

No, ####-for-a-name, he's right. Soaring cuts "range" in half, and outwit isn't a ranged action or anything like that. Dafalcon, yes you can outwit a soaring character from 10 squares.

And for anyone else answering this thread, maybe read the rules ... .... or something. Don't just talk out of your butt.

Wow. Trying to make many friends here???

Well... sorry.

But I ask questions all the time here and it annoys me that people jump up with a this-is-the-way-I-deem-it-should-be answer instead of looking at the rules.

I just want people to (a) think about the question, (b) read the rules and not just say something like, "That's not what happens in real life (forgetting that they are, in fact, talking about people that shoot plasma from their eyeballs)", and (c) not reply with "Fact" if they are just speculating. If you are going to speculate, say that you are. We all do. We're trying to help each other get a handle on rules and complicated wordings.

But if you can't tell the difference between "10 range" and "be within 10 squares" then you should ask questions and not answer them.

I apologize to ck2dstry for the insult. Yes darius, you are right that was not an appropriate response. Maybe this one is slightly less harsh, that's just the way I am. I lived in Europe for 7 years, its hard to come back to the US and realize that kids don't have an education/common sense anymore. They can't spell or do long division, but they know what every color on a HeroClix dial means, and play Magic the Gathering so fast it makes your head spin. My response has always been sarcasm. I feel it makes people feel dumb. And they are. I hope that they take it to heart.

Just tone down the responses a bit. It seems as if you are trying to pick a fight through disrespecting a member. People are really easy to incite.

As far as the answer for this question...I did check. It seems as if it is sort of unclear and implied in the Universe rule book and the current FAQ. But if I were asked to make a ruling with the facts laid out in fro\nt of me I would have to say you are correct. It never says anywhere that LOF non-atack powers must be within 10 squares and are not affected by the halved range. That would be the rule as I see it presented in the rule book...as far as the intent of the designers...I am not sure.

It isn't unclear though.

Range value is halved against soaring characters.

Outwit isn't a question of "range value". Yes if they are within the right amount of squares, you can say he is "in range", but the rules for Outwit say "within 10 squares."

I understand that the rules and FAQs have phrasings that are probably worded by WizKids' lawyers, which is why players should pay careful attention. I think I spend half a match at the tournyes explaining rules to people and looking things up cause they don't understand that Perplex is a "modifier" and so Support ignores it. Of course, the people I play against aren't to bright.

Ok, for the second time (I hit the wrong razzin-frazzin button):

I believe the key part everyone is missing can be found in the oft overlooked Glossary:

The key is the second part. As you can see, "10 squares" is the same as "range of 10". Both are considered a range value.

So, Outwit, in essence, grants the Outwitter a range of 10 when using Outwit.

Now, back to the soaring figure. Since he is soaring, range to him is halved when drawing LOF. Now that we know that "10 squares" is the same as range, soaring modifies Outwits range to "within 5 squares.

Yeah, it's not a cut and dried as it was in the Indy rulebook, but the final answer is the same. Outwit, Perplex, and PC's range is 5 when targeting soaring figs.





On a side note:

It seams, brutherhud, that you are mistaken, and ck2dstry was, in fact, correct. It seams that you owe ck an apology, both for being wrong, and for being an ###-wipe while being wrong.

Yep. The official answer from the judges on the wizkids forums is that a grounded character needs to be within 1-5 squares of a soaring character in order to outwit the soaring.

So the next time you don't know what you're talking about, Brotherhud, it's probably a good idea to stay quiet so you don't make yourself look like an ###.

Wow, you guys are intense, theres a way to outwit a oaring figure ten squares away. I cant believe you guys didn't rmember this. Put the outwitter in Soaring. Woo!

Thanks for the answer, Psylockeslover and Alex.

My next question then, is to ask if that range of 10 while using outwit is considered a replacement value and can therefore be perplexed to a range value of 11 (when targeting grounded figures from grounded figures) or 6 (.5. rounded up when targeting soaring figures)... if "10 squares away" is completely different than range then this obviously can't work ... however, if it is "the same thing" as range, then it seems possible.

I still think that the glossary ruling only really says that range is the number of squares away, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that the number of squares away is range. [That's the old a pear is fruit therefore a fruit is a pear misconception].... however, if the official judge's ruling is that it counts like a range against soaring figures, then that is the official judge's ruling.

I believe that perplex only works on the printed info on the actual clix itself, and you would therefore not be allowed to modify the default 10 range value of outwit.

........
...
.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

And that, my fellow HCrealmers, is why people ask for help. So they can get the facts on a confusing game. As we have seen, there is NO REASON to be rude to someone who's trying to help. No one should fear getting flamed for helping. And in case anyone....anyone gets the idea of complaining that Psylocke's lover doesn't know what he's talking about....

He does.
Ask anyone who's been on here longer than a week.

Thanks for the props GK. Sometimes I get a little.....annoyed....when people belittle others for asking a question or is simply trying to help. In other forums, I couldn't care less, but around here, I just don't like it...


Anyway, to the question at hand:

This is kind of a grey area, but the range for Outwit is granted by the power for use only with the power, similar to the default range for MC. This is not really a replacement value, since it does not take the place of the printed Range Value of the character. It is more along side the printed value.

And ck, there are times when you can Perplex a value that is not printed on the dial. Specifically, when using the SinSyn/Bats Enemy TAs. For example, Bullseye lends his 11 AV to Calypso. You could then Perplex Calypso's AV up to 12. You could also do this with Defenders/JSA TAs, or the Defend Power, but the uses are limited.

Ahhh ok.. I didn't realize that you could do that.. Thanks!