My take on this...

Hammerfall has a ballistic minimum range of 4". Sad to say it, but the big boy is somehow ineffective when you stall him in one place...

I was thinking of something like this...

ATV bases Hammerfall, one at a time, while a ultra long range artillery (with ArP) will take care of his support units. as soon as Hammerfall wastes his time (and heat) trying to kill each baser or dealing point of 1 energy damage to other atv's, a mech with armor piercing will position itself within 4" of hammerfall... as other atv's will take care of other support that might come in (a solitaire, vixen, etc.)...


that's how i'd do it...

TD ... when set up and executed correctly ... are argueably better than mechs in many cases given the point investment.

AP = Armor Piercing
AnP = Anti-Personnel

My example was the SS-A4 which deals 2 damage AP to 2 pogs. Yes that isn't a lot of damage. But pause for a moment. Would you rather deal out 6 damage AP with your TD and then a further 2, then the following turn he repairs a few clicks? Or just the 6 and then he repairs a few clicks? My point is ... the damage adds up. And any edge you can get against a HAZ is certainly welcome.

With bringing 2 arty you can do that every turn ... whereas he can not repair every turn with his Soli or repair veh that is behind him. It has to rest sooner or later. It isn't likely you will see multiple Solis or repair vehs. It is too much of a point investment and it's also too difficult to keep all of that tucked away behind HA where it is out of LOS.

Another good reason for the arty is there is a good likelihood that you will catch the repair unit in the arty blast radius as well if you place right, and those are a lot more fragile.

Lastly ... the arty can do the hunting down, as you mention. He can try and limp out of range sure but you just need 1 turn to move up and you will have the whole board within range (if you didn't already from the get go) ... there's nowhere to hide.

Harassers are just that. They aren't meant to take out much, if anything. So you go cheap. HD ATVs and SS Hoverbikes are some of my staples. Cheap ... very fast, have evade and/or hover to break easy, any can make use of the HD/SS FP (reroll or damage). Heck if you take 3 or more HD ATVs you can shoot in to your opponents DZ on turn one or base opposing arty right from the start if he isn't careful.

This is actually a pretty good loadout for BR. I really hate how BR's stats drop so fast . . . but I can see the value of taking the Mech at this fairly cheap cost. I might spring for Improved Tracking rather than Coolant Pod on this machine, but that's mostly a matter of taste.

its all about initiative. if the other player is playing a FP, i’m loving it. he has to come to me. if he just brings HF i’m ignoring him and taking out his support. if he brings his entire army after me it will be one giant furball. i’ll make sure my forces have terrain advantage (in hindering, behind blocking, or in water) and heat advantage (didn’t waste tokens or heat coming up field). at that point an investment in a mech that costs so many points, but realistically can only take 2 orders every 3 turns (maybe less) becomes a huge disadvantage. 23 defense is not hard to hit, not at all. 13 attack is great, but a min on a 14 inch weapon sucks (he is always going to be based). IMO i’ll never lose to HF (maybe harder challenge if no FP and we dance). except if maybe i’m playing a staller. and even then i’d have to have made the mistake of letting him kill something.

I'm also liking Black Rose, but her weakness, as AG said, is how fragile she is. One on one there are few Mechs she can't take, but you have to keep her protected.

I was thinking of pairing her with the Advance Warning version of Abasi Sdat; it's cheap and basically bumps BR up to a 25!

So far, we have:

BR - 253
Colleen Sawyer + Recruit - 38
Coolant Pod - 16

Hari'a Anubis - 101
Abasi Sdat (Advanced Warning) - 17
Anti-Personnel - 14

CNC CBA X3 - 51

HK ATV X4 - 52
CNC ATV X2 - 28

HS Sylph - 30

We're pretty much putting all our eggs into one basket, but I think the combo of being able to hide behind blocking and having a 25 against ranged helps alot. I really like Sdat's ability, as it is one of the few that help really help out friendly figures; another option would be Wahab Fusili and his Noble Sacrifice but I think it's too easy to get around that one.

The AnP on the Anubis is there to curb the amount of harassers sent my way; with two targets, 3 damage and 14 range it can really put a hurt on a squad of ATVs.

With the amount of harassers in the army, you can completely surround Black Rose making it a real chore to tie her up. The CBA are good for this as it takes 7 clicks to kill them, two more than a streaking shot from Hammerfall. Also the Sylph is in there because it is instrumental to setting up a DFA.

It would be really easy to fit in Electronic Camo somewhere in there but that's trying a little too hard to counter Streaks (As good an ability as it is). Maybe I could put it on the Anubis because of how easy it is to hit and because it only costs 10 points.

Thoughts?

Good to see a lively discussion going.

My problem with the Black Rose it is her Glass Jaw, 2 3 damage in she is almost out for the count. Ok not that bad but she will have problems hitting the high defenses.

Also I think most people are now staring blindly at Hammerfell alone you also need to beat other armies as well.

So lets recap.

2 or 3 BR Solis + support
2 vet. NC + hyperlasers
Hammerfell
Slayer (maybe not)
SAD

2 years ago I believed in the Black Rose now I dont think she makes it.

But maybe some buudding US Champ will prove me wrong.

Or someone will make up something new.

Btw. I notice people assuming it is all unrestricted, sofar all the bigger tournements i know of are AoD onwards. It is always what i work from call the format "restricted"AoD onwards vs. Unrestricted.

Makes some big changes for your army selections.

Does Peacemaker w/ blast doors (2 Light Evade mechs) make the grade anymore? We haven't seen this combo in high level competition recently, but a version of it did make top 2 in US Nationals last year.

Another question. Thug is a good anti-SAD unit, is it effective enough against the other armies to be competitive?

Just a quick question. Has anybody here been doing single combat for the upcomming solaris battles? I just tried an event called rockem' sockem' robots. We brought one nonunique mech, gear and nonunique pilot. Very fun but it changes the way you play alot. I know Solaris will be different but any ideas what single mech would be the best for each weight class?

Metagame now difficult to define. Majority of USA events in last 6 months have been constructed but unrestricted. Long range armor piercing artillery poses problem for assault mechs, many PC's get rid of water. Then Assault Mechs need Coolant pods to close, and usually must attack. Also must consider possibility of Ares in the Metagame.


My recollection of European championship is that winner put Streak missles on Atlas, good counter to SAD with Kolchak or Lizzie Willick. Shooting through walls is a more important part of metagame restricted to AOD and later.


Broken record-Phelan Ward and no equipment...Zellbringen. Kill the support. Grapple the Atlas.... Phelan will make him come to you. Either he comes in overheated and giving you first shot, or you eventually roll the 6 and he has a real problem.



Twin(s) with Inferno Flamers-to paraphrase a great movie-'You keepl what you cook'.

Consider Merc FP with above.

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I liked the point about the 4 inch minimum range. Basing the Atlas and moving other units within the main battery range could be a useful tactic.

Thanks, Sir! I was able to disable Hammerfall's tactics with that., even if the atlas had coolant pod on it. It enabled me to breach everything... I was able to shut it down with a group of DF scout ATV's... too bad time expired when i was attempting to capture it with a salamander.... (it would be pretty cool if it were bypassed...haha!)


my take on Black Rose...

If there is a way to protect Black Rose, a good way is to do the following:
1. Have lots of blocking terrain in your terrain pool...
2. Bring PC's which makes all kinds of terrain into blocking (except caverns, of course)
3. Use CJF FP (the one with mech movement formation), use CJF infy to surround BR...

with that in mind, i can make a good all around army...


Black Rose (with a GS pilot with +2+1+1 stats)
a long tom artillery with some TTLs or Centaur BAs
some CJF infy with JJs
some support units (a CJF vixen, goshawk, etc.)

lots of blocking terrain


well, what do you think?

I use BR with Shizuka, and EC. At my Venue there is a prevalence of Indirecting, so that is the reason I play that. I want to play seismic Dampener, but it seems a tad too risky.

I think it was Elite who mentioned the possible use of two grapple Sylphs, but then had to drop to one. Potentially useful against any of the variety of two mech armies which are popular metagame templates-SAD/Kolchak, Zombie Hammerfall, Kolchak/Slayer, Kolchak/Mangonel etc...

With Hammerfall it will get you a turn of called shot modifier due to Hammerfall's high minimum range, and/or prevent an AO for one turn. Potentially allows you an AO with a long range mech followed by a shot with same long range mech.

How about the 'mini-death star' idea.

Also, since shooting through walls seems to be a metagame theme (SAD often hides behind walls), is it possible that the FP which allows a Sylph to spot might be useful?

I'm not as concerned with BR FP as I am with a second mech with repair equipment. BR FP gives up 20 points, can be cancelled and doesn't deal with merc FP.....

Elite: Black Rose can take on SAD pretty well because it's going to have a very hard time hitting a 24 defense (or 25 in the case of what I put forward) and the MDFA avoids all of its bonuses. As for the Dual Nova Cat with HyL, the amount of infantry present in the army I suggested will make it a huge pain to deal with.

cjlin576: Peacemaker with dual Light Mech support is a force to be reckoned with but usually has too little or no support (Mostly because if you have any it will get picked off). Because of this, you don't have many ways to run interference and if you run into something like Grapple you'll be hard-pressed to deal with it.

TheComeBackKid: The CJF pride is definitely not worth wasting points on; you can definitely splurge and spend an extra action on the formation infantry and that lets you broaden the type of units you can use. Also, a light Mech, BR, some arty and some infantry is going to cost alot of points.

JFW: Unless your opponent is using Tadashi in his Shiro, I don't see why indirecting is causing you to use EC. That gives BR a what, 27 defense?

mikeguth: Sylphs are great now that Mechs are becoming more and more prevalent; it seems less and less points are being spent on support and that makes the little guys invaluable. I'm on the fence about Phelan Ward; the ability can basically win you a game but getting it to go off in time (If ever) is such a gamble that I can't bring myself to use him. Twins with Inferno Flamers...mmmm. I really want to try that combo out. The thing about that one is that it doesn't deal alot of damage. Perhaps:

Kuro Ha - 156
Into the Breach Katana - 37
Brawling - 17

Fortune - 112
Fortuna + HK Recruit - 34
RISC APM - 10

Glory - 112
Gloria + HK Recruit - 34
Inferno Flamers - 23

HK ATVX3 - 39

HK Faction Pride (+1 Damage) - 20

That leaves us 6 points short, but you get the idea; run Gloria into base, run Fortuna into range, flame (And hopefully shutdown) with Gloria and then smack the shutdown Mech for 5 damage with the Kuro Ha. Also, you can use RISC APM for 12 damage on the next turn. The problem of course is that everything is rather fragile. Anyone think that's viable?

Why not counter Hammerfall with Solitude? i mean they are about the same point costs but toss armor peircing on solitude with jonah levin, add the RotS FP then shocktrooper/minigun/atv swarm him.

Mind you staying away from him is not too bad of an idea, or you could even use nebula w/ kisho anticipate and double rate to kill an infantry then run away
giving you the lead.

Armor Piercing is a very expensive Gear for Assaults; also, because of Streaks, Hammerfall is likely to get the first shot on Solitude which is precisely what we don't want.

As for Nebula, I am interested in that Mech. I was talking to Shadow_89 earlier about it and he brought up the idea of fielding it with Homing Beacon as well as the anticipating Kisho. It's quite expensive but it lets you set up a 13 attack Homing Beacon shot, and hopefully following up with another long-ranged Mech like a Thor or a Warwolf.

Outmaneuvering the Atlas works as well but an army like the one that took the EC will be very close together and will be able to shrug off most arty attacks thanks to the Repair and the Pride. But mobility is still key. The Solitaire has to stay close to the Atlas and that really hurts its speed, letting you run circles around them. That's why I think something like the last army I suggested is quite effective against that kind of army.