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Ok, the Superman Enemy TA says if a character already has outwit, this TA has no effect. So there is only 1 outwit not 2.
Also, from the DC HC Errata March 2006 under In Contact With Oracle it says:
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When an Agent already has a power showing on its dial that Oracle has, it may not be granted that same power from Oracle.
Ok, the Superman Enemy TA says if a character already has outwit, this TA has no effect. So there is only 1 outwit not 2.
Also, from the DC HC Errata March 2006 under In Contact With Oracle it says:
So no second outwit from there either.
Yes, but they were specifically asking if the actual, everyday garden-variety Outwit (normally on the character's dial) could you 'replace' it with Outwit from ICWO (or Supes Enemy) so that you could effectively have Outwit back.
And the answer is 'no'. As I said before (and clixer11 before me), when Outwit is countered, Outwit has been countered. And that's it. The source of the Outwit does not matter. Unless the countering method is eliminated (i.e. the character doing the original Outwitting is either damaged past Outwit, KO'd, or has its own Outwit countered), the Outwitted Outwit will stay gone until the beginning of the Outwitting character's turn.
Yes, but they were specifically asking if the actual, everyday garden-variety Outwit (normally on the character's dial) could you 'replace' it with Outwit from ICWO (or Supes Enemy) so that you could effectively have Outwit back.
And the answer is 'no'. As I said before (and clixer11 before me), when Outwit is countered, Outwit has been countered. And that's it. The source of the Outwit does not matter. Unless the countering method is eliminated (i.e. the character doing the original Outwitting is either damaged past Outwit, KO'd, or has its own Outwit countered), the Outwitted Outwit will stay gone until the beginning of the Outwitting character's turn.
Yes but my point was they couldn't replace their outwitted outwit by using supes enemy or ICWO because even though their outwit has been outwitted, it is still on the dial, they just can't use it.
So they could not get outwit from any other source. If they could then I'm not sure I would agree that it would still be outwitted though. It's kind of like having a gun and getting your ammo taken away. If you get some more ammo from somewhere else, you can then shoot the gun. Ok maybe it's not just like that but it's an example.
But since you can't get a power you already have from another source, it doesn't matter anyway.
OUTWIT (optional): Once during your turn (but not during another action), as a free action this character may counter a power on a target opposing character. Treat the target as if it does not have the countered power.
From the Icons Rulebook, in the Glossary:
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counter: Removing a power from a character’s combat dial. The effect of a countered power ends immediately.
So, my point is this -- if Lex Luthor has Outwit on his dial, and that Outwit gets Outwitted, he NO LONGER HAS OUTWIT ON HIS DIAL. Then, if later in the turn, he moves next to another lower-point Superman Enemy, he would GAIN Outwit... because he doesn't have it, and now he is eligible for it.
So I'm not sure about this ruling. It's just my interpretation, I know, but it seems like the above situation should work.
Originally Posted by MercysVictim
So, and I should have known this from the beginning, a fig can't have the same power twice, no matter what the source.
Unless I've missed something along the way, you're exactly right.
Unfortunately, the quote misses the point. When a character has a power on its dial countered, it disappears from the dial according to game rules. Gaining the same power back through Supes Enemy or Oracle-on-card doesn't give a character the 'same power twice'... it potentially gives a character that once had a power, but now doesn't, that same power back again.
The ruling against this potential paradox does make sense as far as the game goes - having a power go bye-bye then somehow getting it back another way creates too many potential game mechanics problems, so it has been ruled that such things can't happen. However, that ruling is not intuitively obvious from what the Supes Enemy TA and Oracle-on-card effect are allowed to do in the game (and none of this ruling has actually been published in any E&C or FAQ document), which is why the question was brought up here in the first place.
I agree now that a character who gets its Outwit countered should not be able to get it back from any source other than removing the offending counter, because it makes things simpler from a game standpoint... However, from the standpoint of the general rules and the TA and Feat texts, that conclusion is nowhere near obvious, and should be formally addressed next time the HC docs are updated to remove this confusion.
I agree now that a character who gets its Outwit countered should not be able to get it back from any source other than removing the offending counter, because it makes things simpler from a game standpoint... However, from the standpoint of the general rules and the TA and Feat texts, that conclusion is nowhere near obvious, and should be formally addressed next time the HC docs are updated to remove this confusion.
I totally agree with you. I think all the rules need a major overhaul so you don't have to look in 4 seperate documents and do a search on the WK Rules forum to get all rulings and rules about something.
Consolidate them all together and rewrite them in such a way so they are clear and prevent possible backdoors for bypassing them, like the example with outwit being countered and therefore off the dial so that fig should qualify to use superman enemy TA.
Consolidate them, simplify them and clarify them, that's my wish.
Wanna start a poll on how likely that is to happen?
Oh, when a power is outwitted it is only on the click showing.(And when you turn the dial and the power is still there and still countered, remember, it is still the click that is showing even though it is a different click.) That power can possibly still be on the dial on a different click. So that character still posseses that power, it just can't use it on the present click. Otherwise, if it was removed from the entire dial, that fig would no longer qualify for certain feats it may have.
For example, if my spiderman's leap climb is outwitted and removed from the entire dial, he would no longer qualify for pounce so the pounce feat should be removed from the game and the points given to my opponent.
Of course it doesn't work that way, but if the outwit works like that then that could conceviably happen. So even though outwit is outwitted and removed from the dial of the click showing, that fig still posseses outwit somewhere on it's dial and would therefore be unable to make use of the superman enemy TA.
I know that doesn't cover all figs, what if it only had 1 click of outwit? Which is why I think the wording of countered in the Icons glossary is a little misleading. It should say something like: the countered power is treated as though it wasn't on the dial... So it would still be on the fig's dial, just unusable while countered.
I hope this long post makes sense to more people than just me.
Oh, when a power is outwitted it is only on the click showing.(And when you turn the dial and the power is still there and still countered, remember, it is still the click that is showing even though it is a different click.) That power can possibly still be on the dial on a different click. So that character still posseses that power, it just can't use it on the present click. Otherwise, if it was removed from the entire dial, that fig would no longer qualify for certain feats it may have.
For example, if my spiderman's leap climb is outwitted and removed from the entire dial, he would no longer qualify for pounce so the pounce feat should be removed from the game and the points given to my opponent.
Of course it doesn't work that way, but if the outwit works like that then that could conceviably happen. So even though outwit is outwitted and removed from the dial of the click showing, that fig still posseses outwit somewhere on it's dial and would therefore be unable to make use of the superman enemy TA.
I know that doesn't cover all figs, what if it only had 1 click of outwit? Which is why I think the wording of countered in the Icons glossary is a little misleading. It should say something like: the countered power is treated as though it wasn't on the dial... So it would still be on the fig's dial, just unusable while countered.
I hope this long post makes sense to more people than just me.
It does make sense... and getting the right wording on paper is difficult (just look how many times WK has tried and still fallen a bit short due to new rules and game aspects) .
One thing to note on the Feat 'qualifying' issue though: Assigning a feat/meeting the feat prereqs is only an issue during team building, and doesn't matter during play. In your example, if Spidey qualifies for the Pounce feat on at least one click of his dial before play begins, that's enough - he doesn't have to keep 're-qualifying' during the match because he takes damage or has a pertinent power countered. If L/C is countered (and 'not on the dial' per the rules), Spidey's player does not have to give up the Pounce card. The only way the opponent can get the points for Pounce is to KO Spidey - there is no way to remove the card from him once play starts, even if the opponent keeps on applying Outwit to L/C every turn. That tactic would do well to make the Feat useless, but does not automatically award anything to the opponent because the 'qualifying' is over and done - during the match, only the 'use' of the Feat can be affected.
One thing to note on the Feat 'qualifying' issue though: Assigning a feat/meeting the feat prereqs is only an issue during team building, and doesn't matter during play. In your example, if Spidey qualifies for the Pounce feat on at least one click of his dial before play begins, that's enough - he doesn't have to keep 're-qualifying' during the match because he takes damage or has a pertinent power countered. If L/C is countered (and 'not on the dial' per the rules), Spidey's player does not have to give up the Pounce card. The only way the opponent can get the points for Pounce is to KO Spidey - there is no way to remove the card from him once play starts, even if the opponent keeps on applying Outwit to L/C every turn. That tactic would do well to make the Feat useless, but does not automatically award anything to the opponent because the 'qualifying' is over and done - during the match, only the 'use' of the Feat can be affected.
One feat that would really be useless from this particular application is Automatic Regeneration - there are NO figures that start with Regeneration (which is quite logical...), so as soon as the game started the feat would be discarded.
Even Fastball Special would be more useful...
So, my point is this -- if Lex Luthor has Outwit on his dial, and that Outwit gets Outwitted, he NO LONGER HAS OUTWIT ON HIS DIAL. Then, if later in the turn, he moves next to another lower-point Superman Enemy, he would GAIN Outwit... because he doesn't have it, and now he is eligible for it.
So I'm not sure about this ruling. It's just my interpretation, I know, but it seems like the above situation should work.
It doesn't work. Take someone like XP vet Iron Man. If you Outwit his Invulnerability then deal one damage to him, he now has Toughness, which is not Outwitted. However, if you then deal two more damage to him on this turn (giving him one click of damage, he has Invulnerability back... which is still Outwitted.
The source of the power is not important. If it IS a power and it has been Outwitted, it is gone until the beginning of your next turn, period. So Lex COULD move adjacent to a new SE figure and regain Outwit, it doesn't do any good because he can't use it. He doesn't have it.
In my day, we didn't have Heroclix. If you were being attacked by Superman with a 3d dumpster, you just had to hope you could outrun him.
Scholarx I was reffering to the rule that says if you have no figs in play that meet the pre reqs if a feat in play then KO that feat and give the points to your opponent. Of course that does specify when the feat DOESN"T say choose a character. (Something like RIP IT UP, when all your figs with super stregnth are KOd that feat is also KOd.) But that's what I was thinking of anyway.
Quebbster you are correct except I was trying to say that if when a power was countered if it was removed from the dial, it would be completly removed from the dial. That is all clicks of the dial showing and not showing. When you start the game regen is not showing but it is still present on the dial so the fig would still qualify for autoregen. And since you can't counter a power that is not showing, it wouldn't come up until regen was showing. Then it could be outwitted and if it worked like the example, all clicks of the dial with regen would not have it anymore and therefore the fig would no longer qualify for autoregen.
I'm glad it doesn't work that way however.