They aren't though in many cases - "updates" or "templates", I mean. Many of the characters - those in "Ultimates" being the most extreme examples - are just "taking one or two stereotypes of the 616-versions and pushing them hard to make it more "Real" and show us that the writers are "creative" ".

Think of it this way: Ultimate Tony Stark - boozing womanizer to the Nth degree (been there, seen it when there were a bit of restrictions on the story); Ultimate Cap - can't cope with the changes in time and can be a brutal soldier (ditto); Ultimate Hank - wife-beater ('cuz that's all 616's legacy boils down to apparently)...etc.

Before Hal was Alan. There was a clear linkage in them reviving the character, and giving it a new science-y background for the Silver Age. Was it a retcon? Sure. But it was a retcon 49 years ago, so at some point we have to accept it and move on.

So there was Alan, and Hal, and Guy, and John, and Kyle. Each one was the Green Lantern. And some of the best stories for these guys acknowledge the lineage. Kyle taking on Hal? John talking about 'the other guys' and how he's different?

That makes for interesting stories. That makes the mantle of the Green Lantern mean something. It's not just a job, or a costume, for Kyle. He had to learn to live up to what people expected of him, knowing about the guys who came before him, and having to make his own place in it.

My complaint is that it only lasts as long as editorial enforces it. So when a new writer comes in and wants to tell more Hal stories, suddenly Hal isn't dead anymore, and... well, that kind of leaves the whole legacy-thing hanging. Which is frustrating.

On the other hand, it lets Joey Q write stories about Spider-man still being a struggling teenager who isn't married and is living with his Aunt May, as opposed to, I don't know, having the Devil erase his marriage and go back on decades of continuity, so Joey Q can write it there.

Thanks Marvel!

Hal was not before Alan. Alan Scott is the Golden Age Green Lantern of the Justice Society of America /All-Star Squadron circe 1940. Hal Jordan did not appear until 1959.

Well, that makes more sense. In the context up to where i left on in the post, it seemed like those were thing you were 'cool with', or at least, the other two examples were thing I was cool with.

I've read the rest of your post since then...but I'm at work and will definitely get into it later.

Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) was arguably the greatest composer of the Baroque Period (1600-1750). Among his MASSIVE oeuvre, near the end of his vocal catalog, are four short Missa Brevis (short masses consisting of only the Kyrie and Gloria section). These 'Lutheran Masses' (or "parody" cantatas, meaning that all the movements of the works were taken from previously existing works of a composer, a.k.a. "plagiarizing" oneself) were thought to be performed as such. A mass that would be performed during services in churches where the Lutherans of time were still holding onto tenets of the rituals and rites of the Catholic church from whence they split under the leadership of Martin Luther.

This thought went uncontested for hundreds of years, until recently. A few years ago, research and further findings discovered that these masses were for another purpose altogether.

Bach was greatly admired by a Hungarian prince who frequently visited Leipzig, where Bach worked. That area of Europe, at the time, was still under Roman Catholic rule and banned any books and works that did not stand in agreement with the Catholic faith. Anything pertaining to Protestantism stood near the top of the list. Bach wanted to give this prince a gift of his favorite cantatas (short church works of the vocal variety) to take back with him to be performed in his court. However, knowing that all carriages entering Hungary would be searched at the border for any banned items to be confiscated (and subsequently burned), Bach had to improvise. First he improved the quality of the music, rearranging what was already perfect to heavenly. Then he took his favorite movements from his selected cantatas and arranged them into four short works of six movements each. He then set text from the first two sections of the Catholic mass and presented them as such. Under the guise of a Missa Brevis, these works could be freely performed in an area where the VERY protestant music of Johann Sebastian Bach would have been strictly forbidden.


If you understand WHY I wrote that, then you truly understand the point of me starting this thread in the first place. If you STILL don't get it, PM me or IM me. I would rather explain myself by educating you, rather than arguing.

...That's what I said?

We're missing each other here. I'm certainly not going to defend the quality of the Ultimates line, but it's obvious that they wouldn't be doing these if they didn't think these new versions would connect better with some new audience.

Your attempting to pick out the elements of commonality (and whereever you got the "brutal soldier" aspect to apply it to the 616 Cap I have no idea) isn't doing the trick.

"Ultimate" Iron Man's history, including his as Tony Stark and how he gets to become Iron Man, is completely different. There's not a great deal to connect the respective characters other than the name and a general appearance.

"Ultimate" Captain America's origins largely remain the same in the two universes, but the character is markedly different. I'm sure it could be argued very persuasively that the "Ultimate" version is an attempt to tie back into the extremes of the Golden Age issues - presenting a markedly more conservative character who uses lethal force. The Steve Rogers/Captain America of the 616 universe from his Silver Age revival hasn't been portrayed anything like that, though, and was instead more of a patriotic New Deal Democrat.

....and, I'm out of time.

It's a good topic, but I've spent far more time online today than I've really had.

My dyslexia was kicking in.

He was Great:

He married a 20 years old chick when he was almost 40.

She give him 13 childrens.


She was HOT*













*Before the 13 childrens.