Do those figures also have SupermanAlly? That's the difference. If they don't, they have to turn off Stealth.

A figure with SupermanAlly AND Probability Control can use that power against a figure in Stealth, but they cannot use Perplex or Outwit against them. I know I'm not crazy, and HeroComplex or double_a or someone will back me up on this. I'll go do a search to see if I can find a thread on it...

(that was quick)

Check out this thread...

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showth...threadid=45249

Here's HeroComplex's post regarding same:

"I'm glad someone noticed my careful wording.

Outwit and Perplex are both strictly non-combat, non-movement, which is only reinforced by the fact that they cannot be used mid-action. Probability Control, on the other hand, is regarded as being combat or movement-based, and therefore Chapeau's last ruling had it usable with the Superman Ally ability."

I see now. That is certainly interesting. It is not that PC does not require Line of Sight - it does, it is just that PC works with Superman Ally in such a way that it might allow PC to work on a Stealthed fig.

Whew! Well, for the record, I don't agree. The rationale is that in some cases, PC is being used to further combat even though it is never itself combat. How this rationale can be kept from applying to Outwit and Perplex is a mystery to me. If I Outwit E Invisible Girl's Invulnerability, that is certainly affecting combat as much as forcing Wolverine to reroll Blades is! But neither are actual combat!

Now that Chapeau is gone, I suspect that this ruling is a kind of mystery ruling which some judges will use and others will not. No offense to him, because I actually liked him quite a bit, but watching the Judges' forum I saw many of his assertions reversed within days because they were obviously wrong. The rules moderator shares his potential FAQ updates with the game designers before publishing it. This is why:

Forums: Any ruling made by the Official Rules Arbitrator on a WizKids games Heroclix forum is an official ruling. The ruling is only tournament legal when the FAQ is published on the WizKids web site.

Perhaps this should be heaped onto Dr. G's plate?

Kid Zemo

Probability Control is rather problematic. I think we can all agree that SupesAlly doesn't allow Perplex and Outwit to be used against a Stealth figure, but PC I'm not 100% convinced, for the reasons you state.

The reasoning Chapeau gave essentially boiled down to PC (almost) only ever being used during a combat or move action (failed leadership roll being the only exception I can think of at the moment). I don't think it should be allowed, but that's just me.

I'm all for asking DrG for a definitive answer. I'm not lucky enough to be a judge, so you'll have to bring it to his attention directly.

Here we go! Here's the Chapeau-ism in question:

and here's a reply from Dr. Gandolf (before he was Rules Moderator or course)

So, there's hope. I think Chapeau's reasoning is flawed:

Superman Ally can ignore hindering terrain for movement and combat
Probability Control is used for rolls
(Almost) all rolls are for combat or movement
-----THEREFORE--------
Supes Ally can (almost always) use Prob. Control on a Stealthed figure

So, if that is sound logic, what's wrong with this logic?

Superman Ally can ignore hindering terrain for movement and combat
Outwit is used for Powers
(Almost) all Powers are for combat or movement
-----THEREFORE--------
Supes Ally can (almost always) use Outwit on a Stealthed figure

In the same thread that this appears, Chapeau asserts forcefully that Stealthed figs cannot be Outwitted PERIOD. So what's the big difference?

Kid Zemo

There's obviously a reason they put the distinction in SupesAlly about movement and combat. Were I the Rules Arbitrator, I would say that means powers which require a move or combat action to activate can be used by a SupesAlly against a figure with Stealth. That would put Outwit, Perplex, AND Probability Control squarely on the outside, where they should be. Stretching the definitions of movement and combat to include PC just opens you up to Outwit and Perplex as well. In order to keep them consistent, all three must be in or out together, and there would be no reason to specify "movement and combat" in the PAC description if they meant to include them.