YES!!!! THIS!!!!!!!

Well I think Grenades should just ignore Shape Change altogether, but I'm crazy that way.

Absolutely right. If something is being attacked, it is being targeted as per PG or rulebook.

The supplementary effects should still take place unless they were dependent on the attack hitting a character.

Smoke Grenades still place hindering and cause you to be unable to make ranged attacks.

Ink Grenades will place hindering as this portion of the grenade effect doe snot rely on an attack, so it will not trigger Shape Change and Super Senses, but the original attack will.

Plasma Grenades will trigger Shape Change and Super Sense, but only for deciding who can be marked, as this part relies on an attack roll. The 'next turn' portion triggers without regards to Shape Change or Super Senses

Thermite Grenades can still blow up terrain because the terrain is unlikely to succeed at a Shape Change roll.

Flashbang and Frag both rely completely on the attack to hit, so SC succeeds then nothing happens. The rest only trigger Shape Change on it for the attack portion (or in the case of Plasma

The character Shape Changed into an impenetrable wall.

This seems to be the unfortunate legacy of the new TK wording, where we have attacks that target a square not a character... except that they turn around and then target the characters not the square.

Is it any wonder that people are getting confused?

But it seems to be a general rule that when an attack targets a square (not a character) but *then* turns around and targets the character(s) (not a square), that the attack ignores stealth and hindering terrain but does *not* ignore shape change or other powers.

The way I see this one.

1. Throw the grenade to target square (With SC/SS figure)
2. Roll Shape Change on figure in target square to see if it "sticks". If SC fails, mark this figure. You can roll for the others figures adjacent to the taget square, but, it's 0 damage.
3. Was it a critical hit? If it was, roll your Super Senses, see if any take damage.
4. Opponents turn, he can then take what ever actions are available to his figures.
5. Your turn. Deal 2 damage to the figure that's been marked (No Super Senses roll available. Attack was made last turn and dealt 0 damage*). You also deal 1 damage to any figures adjacent to the marked figure. Again, no Super Senses, since there wasn't an attack. This is an effect of the grenade a turn after the attack

*Unless it was a Crit Hit

Would it have been more clear if they had worded it "Make a ranged attack against the character occupying the square that does not requre line of site" (Or, in the case of grenades, "and adjacent characters")?

Some will say "If it doesn't require line of sight, then it can go through walls", but, if a figure is on the other side of a wall from another, are they adjacent?

I think they should have spelled out exactly which exceptions they are making. For TK, they should have said, "Make a ranged attack targeting the character, ignoring hindering terrain for line of fire purposes." Stealth would therefore also be ignored by the precedent of the Superman Ally team ability. For grenades, they'd need to say something a bit more complicated but along the same lines, like "Make a ranged attack targeting the character in the chosen square, ignoring hindering terrain and characters for line of fire purposes. Also make a ranged attack targeting characters in adjacent squares that do not require line of fire." There may be some technicality I'm missing there, but something along those lines would have been infinitely preferable.

I don't think Super Senses 't actually cares if damage is dealt, but I'm confused because it says "before damage is dealt' and that usually means the part after would be happening. Hmm. If I'm right, then you roll it anyway, and if you evade the attack, you don't get marked with a Plasma. As I said, I'm unsure.

No. Walls should block this kind of attack as much as any other. Odd thing is, I am unsure you can actually destroy a wall with a grenade unless you are using Thermite.

Are you related to my brother? He can't roll Shape Change to save his soul.

Which, notably, doesn't stop him from stomping my butt 9 time in 10.

***


You're probably thinking of this line from page 4:

Any game effect that has a line of fire drawn to it is considered a target.

Note that this is QUITE different from what you said. It is entirely possible to attack something without drawing Line of Fire to a character (Grenades do this).

This would depend on the phrasing. Anything that depends on the attack being successful or the figure being targeted will not occur to a figure that succeeds on Shape Change. Some other text might. Looking over the known examples:

Smoke (1 damage): Place a hindering terrain marker in the target square and up to two adjacent squares. Remove them at the beginning of your next turn. Characters occupying squares with these markers can't make ranged attacks.

The placement of the markers and their subsequent effect are not keyed to attacks or targets, so it will affect Shape Changers just fine.

Frag (2 damage): A hit character in the target square is dealt 1 additional damage. Each other hit character is knocked back from the target square.

A successful Shape Change will prevent any of this text from applying to you.

Ink (1 penetrating damage): Place a hindering terrain marker in the target square. At the beginning of your next turn, deal 1 additional penetrating damage to each character occupying the target or adjacent squares, then remove the marker.

The marker's effects are independent of any targets or successful attacks. Shape Change will not help here.

Plasma (no damage): Mark a hit character in the target square. At the beginning of your next turn, deal 2 damage to the character marked in this way and 1 damage to all adjacent characters that are friendly to that character.

Shape Change can prevent the marking, but it cannot prevent the results of being the Marked character or being adjacent to him. (In case this isn't clear, what I'm saying is that Shape Change can prevent you from being marked, but once you are marked, you don't get to roll Shape Change again when the damage comes, and neither do the figures adjacent to you.)

Flashbang (no damage): The target square for this grenade can be within 8 squares. Place an action token on all hit characters that have zero action tokens.

Shape Change will protect you from this text, if successful.

Thermite (1 damage): Destroy up to 3 squares of blocking terrain or walls adjacent to the target square.

Shape Change is irrelevant here.

Or like I suggested elsewhere, leave the wording for grenades as is, except change 'ranged' to 'close' and almost all the questions instantly vanish.

You can't make close combat attacks on non-adjacent characters. See, already an issue there.

Erm, you can if the power says you can. Just like how you can't make attacks against guys you can't see, except for all the times that you can.

Certainly it woulnd't have an effect on the questions in this specific thread, but all the other stuff about stealth and adjacency and whatever would not have come up.

Also, I think they still wanted ES/D and other similar powers to trigger.

That's very true. And it wouldn't trigger the COG TA either. But it would cause CR to kick on, which isn't totally illogical, and I think all in all it woulda been a fair trade-off for more up front clarity.

1&2) Placing the smoke is not contingent upon hitting anyone. Feel free to place the smoke.


1&2) T is only knocked back if you rolled doubles.
The primary target (T) gets the extra damage and the other figures (S&C) get KBed (if they take damage).



Yup...well, as long as they get hit.



The only one marked is T.

S&C will still be attacked, but it really doesn't have much effect. (There could be effects like "When Bob is successfully attacked....")


They would be affected. Heck, Bob could come running over after the attack and be affected.