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Okay, so something I've been thinking about a lot is, what is the strongest play in Mafia if you're town, and you're not an info gatherer.
Okay for example, RB, MD, JK or Bus Driver.
All of these roles cause confusion and 'stop' players from doing what they do. Now, in an avg game, there will be about 20-25% mafia (as far as I can tell). That means you have a 3/4 or 4/5 chance of hitting someone that is not Mafia.
Now, I understand these roles can be very useful when the hit the right person, but highly NOT useful when the hit an info gatherer.
Now, as I understand it, to win as Town, the best method is to gather as much information and use it to ferret out Mafia.
This would lead me to believe, that without some information to help guide ones actions, it's not in the best interest of the town to have the above mentioned characters act in the first night or two.
Now, on a different note, I understand that it costs 'fun' in the game to have town not perform these actions, as these actions make the game less clear and easier for the Mafia. Also, when one is one of these characters it's much more fun to do it, and get to sn1gger at someone as they try to figure out what happened to their action, but in the world of gathering 'wins' I don't think they are in the towns best interest.
So, all that being said; is there something I'm missing here? I understand that for some people that 20% or 25% chance of hitting a Mafia member is nice, but is it worth it over all?
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Okay, Next Question:
Information gathering
One of the things I've noticed is that when I'm an information gatherer, I tend to share it as soon as I have something useful. However, as far as I can tell, our more experienced members rarely seem to come forward with this information.
Am I missing some important piece of information here? Is there a reason it's best to stay quite about being an information gatherer, when one has useful information?
Or is it fundamentally the same answer as above? It's more fun not to know, so it's not worth bringing this information forward? Or is it about getting the 'win'? And if one outs themselves as an info gatherer, than they are highly likely to get killed so it's better to say nothing at all and just try to stay alive?
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Finally, Neutral play
Okay, so as far as I can tell most neutrals are lynched as soon as they are outed, if there is nothing else to do. In many cases I've seen whole days spent discussing whether or not to lynch a neutral rather than Mafia hunting. Now, of course, I get that it's in the best interest of the Mafia to redirect attention to the Neutral and waste a whole day, but it seems that many Town players enjoy lynching neutrals even before Mafia.
Am I missing something here? As far as I can tell early game (which is when most neutrals seem to get lynched) is the time they are the most pro town. Why lynch someone who's likely to vote with you?
Last edited by spworldtour; 01/20/2012 at 02:55..
Reason: sn1gger is blocked by the filter
Okay, so something I've been thinking about a lot is, what is the strongest play in Mafia if you're town, and you're not an info gatherer.
Okay for example, RB, MD, JK or Bus Driver.
All of these roles cause confusion and 'stop' players from doing what they do. Now, in an avg game, there will be about 20-25% mafia (as far as I can tell). That means you have a 3/4 or 4/5 chance of hitting someone that is not Mafia.
Now, I understand these roles can be very useful when the hit the right person, but highly NOT useful when the hit an info gatherer.
Now, as I understand it, to win as Town, the best method is to gather as much information and use it to ferret out Mafia.
This would lead me to believe, that without some information to help guide ones actions, it's not in the best interest of the town to have the above mentioned characters act in the first night or two.
This is where the day phase comes into play. Pay attention to the things that people say and how Day 1 pressure has been put into play. The way people react can be telling signs to how to approach them (if at all). Here's my take on how to use each of the roles you listed
Role-Block - This can be used as an info gather role, actually. On a night where there is only one kill or no kills, the kill failed in some way (unless there would only be the one). This can lead you to pressure the person you blocked. Now this isn't a sure deal. The kill target could also have been jail-kept or doctored.
Misdirect - This is the most wildcard of all the powers for the simple fact that you have no control over who your target targets, and you won't know who they end up targeting. Sometimes a misdirect is shown in a night write-up, but most mods try to avoid this sort of copping. The most effective misdirect I ever had was in loganspeedo's TV Superhero mafia where I knew who the final killer was. I misdirected him on the last night in order to give the remaining players a fair chance (equal opportunity on who would die). It also confirmed 100% that my target was the final killer.
Jail-Keep - See Roleblock. Another thing to keep in mind with a Jail-Keep, if a lot of people claim failure, determining if they targeted your target can clear up that confusion, depending on how the moderator runs the Jail-Keep.
Bus-Drive - This is actually a powerful role, especially if the driver is able to bus-drive him or herself. In a game where a crucial role is outed, but maybe the doctor is dead (or the outed role) the bus-driver can swap the doctor out with any other player, offering a chance for protection. Additionally, the bus-drive can set the mafia up to kill off their own members with properly placed swapping. Pay attention to the roles people claim and try to determine who the most likely nightkill target is, then swap that person with someone who you feel may be bad for the town. A Mafia Bus-driver is scary to come across.
To act on Night 1 or 2 is up to you, but pay close attention to who talks and what they say on those day phases. And it can still be worth it regardless because it can lead to talk the following day.
Quote : Originally Posted by spworldtour
Okay, Next Question:
Information gathering
One of the things I've noticed is that when I'm an information gatherer, I tend to share it as soon as I have something useful. However, as far as I can tell, our more experienced members rarely seem to come forward with this information.
Am I missing some important piece of information here? Is there a reason it's best to stay quite about being an information gatherer, when one has useful information?
Or is it fundamentally the same answer as above? It's more fun not to know, so it's not worth bringing this information forward? Or is it about getting the 'win'? And if one outs themselves as an info gatherer, than they are highly likely to get killed so it's better to say nothing at all and just try to stay alive?
IT depends on the information obtained. If you reverse track the person who was killed, and that person was targeted by Player A, you're going to want to bring that information forward so the killer can be lynched. If you reverse track Player C and Player C says nothing about bad stuff happening, you should probably just not say anything (after all, a reverse tracker is a juicy target). If you're the cop and you find Town on Night 1, obviously, there's no reason to come forward with this information. If you cop Mafia, ALWAYS come forward. You will be given protection in some form. IF you cop Neutral, keep it in your notes, but unless that player is suspect or claims an alternate alignment, it's best not to come forward since that player could be a neutral survivor (but remember, they can also be a serial killer or cult leader).
Quote : Originally Posted by spworldtour
Finally, Neutral play
Okay, so as far as I can tell most neutrals are lynched as soon as they are outed, if there is nothing else to do. In many cases I've seen whole days spent discussing whether or not to lynch a neutral rather than Mafia hunting. Now, of course, I get that it's in the best interest of the Mafia to redirect attention to the Neutral and waste a whole day, but it seems that many Town players enjoy lynching neutrals even before Mafia.
Am I missing something here? As far as I can tell early game (which is when most neutrals seem to get lynched) is the time they are the most pro town. Why lynch someone who's likely to vote with you?
The problem comes down to the power the neutral has late game. Remember that if Mafia ever outnumbers the Town (with exception of potential Town powers that can lead to kills), the Mafia wins. If there's 4 Town and 4 Mafia and 1 Neutral remaining, almost ALWAYS the Neutral will side with the Mafia. The reason is because once the Mafia gets that lynch in, the neutral wins. That's part of the win condition. Not only this, but when a neutral outs themself, the mafia typically turns a blind eye to them because they can usually sway them. That increases the chances of Town members dying at night, something the town doesn't want.
The neutral roles are balanced because though they can win with either side, they have to build up trust.
Okay, so something I've been thinking about a lot is, what is the strongest play in Mafia if you're town, and you're not an info gatherer.
Okay for example, RB, MD, JK or Bus Driver.
All of these roles cause confusion and 'stop' players from doing what they do. Now, in an avg game, there will be about 20-25% mafia (as far as I can tell). That means you have a 3/4 or 4/5 chance of hitting someone that is not Mafia.
Now, I understand these roles can be very useful when the hit the right person, but highly NOT useful when the hit an info gatherer.
Now, as I understand it, to win as Town, the best method is to gather as much information and use it to ferret out Mafia.
This would lead me to believe, that without some information to help guide ones actions, it's not in the best interest of the town to have the above mentioned characters act in the first night or two.
All roles can be used to gather information to some extent. Even if it's to debunk someone's claim. Like Kenny said, the key is to have a productive and directional Day 1. This gives people a chance to use their powers effectively rather than just blindly choosing someone for a blatantly meta reason. The best town wins are when the town doesn't rely too much on info gathered at night but rather their own instincts during ther day phase.
Also, in a lot of games I've seen, the town only comprises 50-60% of the total number of players. Even a risky N1 misdirect has a very good chance of helping the town in the end.
Quote : Originally Posted by spworldtour
Okay, Next Question:
Information gathering
One of the things I've noticed is that when I'm an information gatherer, I tend to share it as soon as I have something useful. However, as far as I can tell, our more experienced members rarely seem to come forward with this information.
Am I missing some important piece of information here? Is there a reason it's best to stay quite about being an information gatherer, when one has useful information?
Or is it fundamentally the same answer as above? It's more fun not to know, so it's not worth bringing this information forward? Or is it about getting the 'win'? And if one outs themselves as an info gatherer, than they are highly likely to get killed so it's better to say nothing at all and just try to stay alive?
Over time you will build a name for yourself and become a heavy night target. When that happens and you've got an info gathering role, you start to realize that your death will doubly hurt the town. So the logical alternative is to try to subtly get the person you've got good info on lynched without coming forward with any reason for the mafia to come after you. Also, the less the mafia knows about exactly what you've got on them, the harder it is for them to effectively plan a way to foil it.
Quote : Originally Posted by spworldtour
Finally, Neutral play
Okay, so as far as I can tell most neutrals are lynched as soon as they are outed, if there is nothing else to do. In many cases I've seen whole days spent discussing whether or not to lynch a neutral rather than Mafia hunting. Now, of course, I get that it's in the best interest of the Mafia to redirect attention to the Neutral and waste a whole day, but it seems that many Town players enjoy lynching neutrals even before Mafia.
Am I missing something here? As far as I can tell early game (which is when most neutrals seem to get lynched) is the time they are the most pro town. Why lynch someone who's likely to vote with you?
Being neutral is a really tough role if you don't play it just right. Especially a neutral survivor. For those you need to time your claim perfectly so that both the town and mafia need to keep you alive to win. you also need to do whatever it takes during the sday to seem townie while attempting to get to a point where the game is a very close one so that both sides need your vote.
The reason people fear neutrals so much is that with the mafia, the town knows what they're getting for the most part. A group of people who cannot grow, but can coordinate their actions. If you find one and don't kill them, they can change their plan but only so much. neutrals are scary because traditionally, that is where mods will try out strange roles with odd powers and win conditions. It's literally a fear of the unknown that makes people more willing to vote out neutrals than mafia. Especially in the early game or if the mafia has already had a loss.
Last edited by sstralkowski; 01/20/2012 at 10:08..