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Telekinesis
Give this character a power action and designate a target character or object (A) and a destination square (B). This character, A, and B must all be within 8 squares and line of fire of each other. Place A in B. If A is a character, it must be a single base character and possess the or symbols. If A is an opposing character, make a close or ranged combat attack that deals no damage against A, and only place the character in B if the target is hit. If A is an object and B is occupied by an opposing character, this character may make a ranged combat attack targeting the character occupying B, dealing object damage and destroying the object. A character that has been placed by Telekinesis this turn can’t use Telekinesis this turn.
So you designate Target and draw Line of Fire to A:
If A is an opposing character, make a close or ranged combat attack that deals no damage against A, and only place the character in B if the target is hit.
"If" makes the statement happen when you draw LoF and Target.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
How is that? Shape Change requires being a TARGET of an ATTACK.
The point of my question being that the TK TARGETing happens way before TK is an ATTACK according to the above ruling.
The timing of Targeting and when things are ATTACKS is what is at the heart of the question.
I still think that PW is an Attack from beginning to end like Leap Climb Attacks and TK Attacks.
(note: that Leap Climb effects the targeting when it is still just a Close Combat Action much like PW as in the question it doesnt become a Close Combat ATTACK in theory until after the targeting.)
Attacks target unless you are specificall told otherwise. All attacks.
COMBAT ACTIONS:
CLOSE COMBAT ACTIONS AND
RANGED COMBAT ACTIONS
There are two types of combat actions: close combat
actions and ranged combat actions. Each of these
action types can be used to activate a game effect
that requires the corresponding action, but most
of the time they will be used to activate an attack.
A close combat action can be given to a character
to activate a close combat attack that targets an
adjacent opposing character. A ranged combat action
can be given to a character to activate a ranged
combat attack that targets one or more non-adjacent
opposing characters that are within range and line of
fire.
While PW isn't attacking right away, it eventually *DOES* attack. So it targets. Used to be PW specifically mentioned that it did not target; it no longer does so. So if you had a PW that didn't ignore effects (say, like Anti-Monitor's Time To Feed), that PW would trigger Shape Change when it gets around to attacking.
Same thing with TK or anything else that attacks but does not specifically say it does not target.
Attacks target unless you are specificall told otherwise. All attacks.
I understand that.
Quote : Originally Posted by normalview
Same thing with TK or anything else that attacks but does not specifically say it does not target.
The problem is that targets for TK are declared in the first part of the power. When targets are declared you have no idea what options will be choosen so at the time the targeting occurs TK its not yet an ATTACK.
Remember this is the argument you are making: that the LoF portion of PW is not part of an ATTACK simply because its text precedes the word "attack".
My belief is that once its under the umbrella of a Combat Action its all an Attack...as such I dont see why PW is getting special treatment, that is not granted TK or Leap Climb.
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
So you designate Target and draw Line of Fire to A:
Incorrect first you designate targets.
Line of Fire happens later.
You Still target during the first part even if you end up not making an ATTACK at all.
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
The problem is that targets for TK are declared in the first part of the power. When targets are declared you have no idea what options will be choosen so at the time the targeting occurs TK its not yet an ATTACK.
Let's say you choose A, an opposing character. Now that you have chosen A, you make a ranged combat attack since it is an opposing character. Since you are about to target A with a ranged combat attack, your opponent rolls Shape Change.
I fail to see how this is an issue.
Quote
Remember this is the argument you are making: that the LoF portion of PW is not part of an ATTACK simply because its text precedes the word "attack".
Yes... but so what? Forgetting for a second that PW and TK are really only vaguely alike, how does this matter for TK?
Quote
My belief is that once its under the umbrella of a Combat Action its all an Attack...as such I dont see why PW is getting special treatment, that is not granted TK or Leap Climb.
Except that what you believe doesn't really matter here: that isn't how it works. You are starting with a false assumption and that is leading you to an incorrect conclusion.
Let's say you choose A, an opposing character. Now that you have chosen A, you make a ranged combat attack since it is an opposing character. Since you are about to target A with a ranged combat attack, your opponent rolls Shape Change.
I dont just chose A. I designate A as a target in the first sentence of the power. It says that right on the PAC. Why would I need to choose A as a target again, later on in the power?
Quote
TELEKINESIS Give this character a power action and designate another target character or object (A) and a destination square (B).
Just like PW, I see no reference to the word ATTACK in the first sentence, so why should it be considered an attack at the point in time that I target?
Yes, if I keep reading the entry I find out that it can lead to an ATTACK, but I find out the same thing if I keep reading PW.
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
Because PW says "All game effects possessed or used by other characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved. TK has no such line.
I dont just chose A. I designate A as a target in the first sentence of the power. It says that right on the PAC. Why would I need to choose A as a target again, later on in the power?
Because you don't. Instead, you are told that, if that A you chose before is an opposing character, you are attacking them.
Quote
Just like PW, I see no reference to the word ATTACK in the first sentence, so why should it be considered an attack at the point in time that I target?
Yes, if I keep reading the entry I find out that it can lead to an ATTACK, but I find out the same thing if I keep reading PW.
But, unlike PW, there is nothing that happens between selecting A and attacking A.
The problem is that targets for TK are declared in the first part of the power. When targets are declared you have no idea what options will be choosen so at the time the targeting occurs TK its not yet an ATTACK.
Remember this is the argument you are making: that the LoF portion of PW is not part of an ATTACK simply because its text precedes the word "attack".
My belief is that once its under the umbrella of a Combat Action its all an Attack...as such I dont see why PW is getting special treatment, that is not granted TK or Leap Climb.
I'm no expert. Haven't played long but it could be different because the initial character you draw line of fire to may not end up being targeted by the attack. Say you have PW at 6 range. You draw line of fire to a character 6 spaces away, well, to PW you then cut your range in half, excluding the initial character from the actual attack. This would be my reasoning.....
But, unlike PW, there is nothing that happens between selecting A and attacking A.
...but this is the sort of thing that lets me see the difference.
So you are saying?....
That if there are multiple effects (I guess of substance) going on the different effects can be in separate contexts (attack or not an attack).
I guess where that line of different effects is, happens to be easier for you to see than me.
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
so if pulse wave has to target before an attack is made, does that mean stealth characters cannot be attacked by pulse wave when in stealth?
You dont target during the first part of PW, you just draw LoF.
But Stealth still works even when not targeting. Since Stealth can block the LoF during the first half of the power it generally wont get ignored during the attack half of the power
So more or less yes, Stealth can stop PW
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
You dont target during the first part of PW, you just draw LoF.
But Stealth still works even when not targeting. Since Stealth can block the LoF during the first half of the power it generally wont get ignored during the attack half of the power
So more or less yes, Stealth can stop PW
Except the part when Drawing Lines of Fire it Ignores Characters and Hindering terrain, so no Stealth will not work.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
...but this is the sort of thing that lets me see the difference.
So you are saying?....
That if there are multiple effects (I guess of substance) going on the different effects can be in separate contexts (attack or not an attack).
Possibly. It all depends on what exactly these multiple effects of substance are doing.