Um.... Dreadstar, I must respectfully disagree.

The "troubled super hero" concept is generally credited to Stan Lee, who introduced the idea of plugging a soap-opera storyline into the usual genre of people in tights beating each other up.

I daresay Spider-Man's first appearance predates Alan Moore's first comic work by quite some time.

As to whether or not the Ultimate lines are "necessary"... well... I don't need 'em, but I don't publish Marvel Comics. And if I DID publish Marvel Comics, I would be thinking very hard about the future of my company, my job, and the comics genre itself.

Comics were spawned during a time when the Print Media ruled the world, folks. Its only real competition was radio and the movies. Eventually, TV came along, but printed matter still had advantages: it was cheap, portable, and ultimately disposable. Furthermore, back then, entertainment stuff aimed specifically at a younger market was a HECKUVA lot sparser than it is now. When I was a kid, if you wanted to see ... say... movies, movies aimed specifically at a non-adult audience, you had two choices: Disney (if any Disney films were showing around that time) or whatever "teenage" carpola happened to be at the drive-in.

Comics were there. Comics bridged that gap. Comics filled a need, a niche, for those of us who wanted what they had to offer.

And now, a brief comparison:

MY CHILDHOOD'S ENTERTAINMENT POSSIBILITIES:
TV (five channels, free)
Book (paperback, $1-$2)
Magazine (less than a buck, generally)
Video Games (Atari 2600, free, or coin-op machines, $5 bucks minimum for a decent time)
Movies (one theatre in town, around a buck or two)
Doin' Stuff With Friends (varied)
Comics (around a quarter each)

TODAY'S OPTIONS:
TV (zillion channels, free)
Video/DVD (around $2-5, overnight rental)
Book ($5-$10, paperback)
Magazine (around $5)
Video Game (lots of platforms, free)
Doin' Stuff With Friends (varies)
Movies ($5-$8)
Comics ($3 each or so)

Yes, yes, I know TV and video games ain't free, but I'm talking impulse value vs. cash in hand, here, for a kid, you follow me? My point is THIS:

Most of the things on this list have increased by a factor of three to five in cost since the mid-1970s.

Comics' cost have increased by a factor of 12 or so.

When I was ten, I routinely bought ten to twenty comics a month. Didn't think about it twice, and didn't spend all my money on comics, either.

To do that now, a ten-year-old would have to have a minimum reliable income of $35-$80 per month. Furthermore, he'd have to have reliable transportation to and from the comic shop, since it's unlikely he could get all his titles from the corner drugstore any more... like I did when I was ten.

The traditional comics market -- children -- is as dead as the dodo. They might watch "Justice League" or "X-Men" on Cartoon Network, but very few of them buy the comics. Not regularly, anyway. The field has been abandoned to geekdom, and us old poops with enough disposable income to regularly wallow in nostalgia.

So if Marvel thinks they can rekindle that audience by specifically targeting a younger demographic with its Ultimates line, I ain't gonna beef about it. It's not like they cancelled all their NON-Ultimate material. The same Spidey or Avengers I grew up with are right there if I want them.

For what it's worth, I hope the experiment works. A world without comics would, for my money, be a poorer one.

You mean comics were originally written for kids back in the day, Doomtoy!?!?
It's a shame that I don't feel comfortable bringing my son and eventually my daughter into most comic book stores. Sure, the MAX lines are definitely for "mature" audiences, but practically half of the covers on the comics in the racks aren't appropriate for kids these days, let alone the content inside. Comics, just like TV, movies, magazines and video games are becoming more and more dangerous and exploitive to children's minds. Sure, all this stuff now targets the 20-30 somethings that have all the disposable income, but, as Doomtoy said, a true children's market is practically dead. Saturday morning cartoons used to be creative and adventurous. Now, you either got "educational" shows for mostly kids under 5, or just a bunch of imported clone Japanese fluff that's merely on air to push the latest game craze. To reel in my point, let's just say I really wish people would create comics, cartoons, games and movies to inspire creativity in kids while not dumbing down the content or violating or exploiting their young minds.

While an interesting take on old characters, the Ultimate lines just seem like another modern ploy to try to come across as relevant. Well, I don't know about you, but I don't think the comic world is the best place to go to create your social or spiritual world view or to create a perception of reality. Like movies, its a place to go to escape for an hour or two into the imaginative beyond. That doesn't mean comics still can't have a moral. That was Stan Lee's whole point with Spider-man's "power and responsibility" theme. Also, the fact that you read "super-hero" comics is because you want to see some out of this world or, at least, neighborhood saving heroics. Even the classic titles, based on the particular writer, are trying to become edgier and more about the "drama" of the super characters with each other more than the "hero" aspect of their characters. Why haven't we seen many new super-heroes or teams created in the last 20 years or so? I guess it's lack of creativity and a lack of values that the original super-hero creators had that started this whole genre. I guess it's the allure of money and big sales, over the desire to tell a tale that will inspire and encourage kids and even adults today. Unfortunately, this generation and this era needs hope and heroes more than ever.

Who knows, maybe I'll try to pen my own story someday. Until then, I hope someone in the comics/movie/gaming industry realizes that kids, while poorer in financial resources, are richer in imagination and a desire to believe...two things that the super-heroes of old really helped inspire and that really seems to lack in today's society. And, ya never know, parents might make more of an effort to shop at comic book stores with their kids if they knew that they didn't have to worry so much about what their kid might accidentally see or read.

As for the Ultimate line, if you're in your mid to late teens or older and you like 'em, more power to ya. I just wish they'd keep the cursing and increasingly suggestive language out of the old continuity titles. I'm as big an Avengers fan as the next guy, but they've really been pushing it the last couple of years in that book. Funny thing is, Captain America himself would never sign on to appear in a good ol' American comic he knew kids might read with some of the content in the Avengers book lately, let alone put up with some of the stuff his team of "heroes" have been saying or doing in recent issues.

If comics continue down the path they've been taking, I will be a "True Believer" no longer.

At least this game we all love is called "Hero"clix and not "Soap Opera" clix. (Although, the supposed Con Artist was a bit "questionable" at best.)

Anyway, thanks for attending today's public service announcement. Now back to the original programming....

re reynold. Actually, the Cap run where he's shown having been frozen by the army is wrong. He was not frozen by them, but recovered by them and it was shown they were trying to decide if they wanted to thaw him or not.

This is even completely in doubt as it turns out the whole thing was plot to get Captain America to murder/kill. So it is questionable if any of the footage he saw is even true or not.

Wait a sec, I must have missed that memo. I wish Morrison would stick to smoking his hashish and trying to be a pop culture star. The good thing is he is headed back to DC.

But for my vote I am going with the Marvel Universe and not Ultimate.

heres my take, which would i rather read?

Avengers/Ultimates= Ultimates
AmazingSpider-Man/UltimateSpider-Man= Amazing
FantasticFour/UltimateFantasticFour= Ultimate
UncannyX-Men/UltimateX-men= Ultimate
but,
X-Treme or NewX-Men/UltimateX-Men= X-treme or NewX-Men

so it's about 50/50, i tried Ul.Spider-Man did not like it, and i've tried Avengers and do not like it. it's the best of both worlds. just read what makes you happy. dont stick w/ a book just 'cause you have all these years. if you dont like it drop it. its that easy.

I like the Ultimate stuff better than what is being written in standard Marvel continuity right now. But I like my classic 70s-80s Marvel better than Ultimate.

Well, I thought about it, and yes, it was pretty much necessary. And funny too.
But lets see, the Cap in the Ultimate line is straight out of the cooler, fresh from the 40's and right out of WWII. So why wouldn't he say something like that?

If you are put off by his good old values then don't read it. I am sure somewhere, there is a Captain Correctness you can pick up and read that won't offend you.

And as far as Cap and patriotism? He is freaking Captain America. What the hell do you expect? See him go around burning our flag and denouncing his country?

I've been reading the trade paperback issues. I've just read the Assault on Weapon Plus story arc, leaving me with a cliffhanger of Wolverine blowing up a satellite with Cyclops, Fantomex, and him. I've read in Wizard that Xorn is really Magneto, that's sucks, but I hear it's a great moment. I also know that Jean will die, again. But up to the Weapon Plus story, it has been entertaining. Xorn was a great mystery, and I don't see how it could be Magneto. Cassandra Nova was a great villain, and blowing up Genosha was horrifying. Cyclops has a little bit more character. The new story arc coming up, set in the future looks like a fun read. So, what's up? What's wrong with New X-Men.

Doomtoy...

Technically, I'd call Mr. Lee's approach the "average guy" hero...not the "troubled" hero. Stan Lee took the concept of the ordinary man or woman, with their own unique problems and issues, and then interjected the idea of the superpowerful into their formula. Hence, the nebbish, shy teen suddenly becomes the Amazing Spider-Man...the weakling, thin Steve Rogers is bombarded by Vita-Rays and becomes Captain America...etc. The "troubled" hero is the superpowerful being who instead of taking responsibility with his/her newfound abilities, wallows in his/her inability to deal with those powers or responsibilities. Drug problems. Abusive relationships. A general disregard for the moral higher ground....those are the troubles of "troubled" heroes. And although all have been dealt with in the Classic environment, they were issues treated with respect and seriousness; now they're marketing ploys! Look how Classic Marvel dealt with Tony Stark's alcoholism and how the Ultimate's did it...it's an in joke to them...I mean, that's generally insulting to the issue, especially if Marvel is intending this to a younger audience. To me, I guess it doesn't matter if there is no "kids" market anymore; no more time in growing up to have beliefs and ideals...I guess if it were my child, this type of Ultimate sludge would not be on the reading list.
Make mine Classic.

*hurl!* ok, when you say classic marvel, i think Classic marvel! that doesn't mean whats going on in marvel now, because marvel now is as different from marvel then as marvel now is different from the ultimates! and ultimates, come on im sick and tired of alternate universes! 2099, M2, Heroes reborn, marvels got a real thing for alternate universes. well then why doesn't somebody bring back What If?! that series was great. heck the entire M2 universe was based around Spider girl, and she appeared in a what if comic!. (not that i liked the M2 universe) i dunno. i've stopped readin american comics today. very few titles i pick up. if anyone wants me i'll be catchin up on those forty years of backstory history and continuity problems that exist up untill ohhh, the early/mid 90's. i'm debating which event to end at, spider clones, bone claws, or the dispute about where exactly gwen stacy's death took place.. oh wait.. maybe thats too far back. i suppose i'm just an oldschool junkie. i may have been born in the 80's but i came out readin comics from the 60's! :D

oh, and by the way, for the record, if you wanna actually pit universe against universe, Classic Marvel has got the Ultimates in a hearbeat. i mean, heck ya gotta think, duh, this is classic marvel, and there are a helluvalotta characters in the classic marvel universe. i mean, sheer numbers alone would fell the ultimates... not to mention that all of those numbers happen to have super powers of their own...