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I've got a few questions regarding A giant character, carrying multiple figures who have picked up special objects and equipped them.
During today's event I got very upset (putting it nicely) with the designated judge for the event.
He had the chases Mr. Sulu and Captain Kirk both pick up special objects and equip them and then using Bat Knight. He carried both of them his full movement to do the ram ability. Then because both Sulu and Kirk were placed according to him they got to do their special attacks.
Traits are shown below.
ULTIMATE BATMOBILE: Bat-Knight can use the Ram ability. (Ram: Give Bat-Knight a move action to use "Improved Movement: Ignores Characters" and move along a direct path. After actions resolve, make a close attack targeting all opposing characters whose squares were moved through. Each hit character is dealt Bat-Knight's printed damage value and then deal Bat-Knight 1 unavoidable damage for each hit character.)
TWO-FISTED PUNCH: Close Combat Expert. If Captain Kirk has not moved this turn, he may use Close Combat Expert as FREE
YOU EITHER LEAVE THIS BOIS BLOODIED, OR WITH MY BLOOD ON YOUR SWORDS.: Blades/Claws/Fangs. Once per turn, if Lt. Sulu has not moved this turn, he may make a close attack using Blades/Claws/Fangs.
I countered that that was pure BS since for starters he couldn't carried them since they did pick up objects during their action that turn. He said their equipped so they are on their cards, not being carried by them. Also that while he did carry them and that while they did not move on their own they were moved from point A to point B. He said he "placed them" so they could attack. Since he was left to run the event he had the final say on it. This boiled my blood when he said it to me.
I also found out later since he conveniently forgot his Bat-Knight card that after doing this action he is suppose to take one unavoidable damage for each character hit. He neglected to do that in my game and while I can't say for certain, I bet he did it in both of the other rounds in today's event.
Even though its been almost 8 hours since the event ended I'm still highly upset over it and feel I got cheated. So I guess a few of my questions go like this.
1. Can someone who picked up and equips a special object be carried?
2. Since all 3 of his special objects were heavy, could characters without super strength be allowed to pick them up and equip them?
2. Can someone being carried/placed still be allowed to be given a free action?
4. If your carried, can you still be given a free action to do sidestep by itself and/or sidestep to pick up an object?
I'll probably think of more to ask after I sleep on it, but this is not the first time he has placed this trio in one of our tourneys, but its the first time I've faced him with it.
I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but a lot of Wizkids "wording" on "How you can do this, but you can't do that" since the rules changed has gotten me so frustrated I feel at times like chucking it all out and just walking away.
1. Yes. Equipped objects are not held.
2. No, but I'm guessing they never picked the objects up. Characters without super strength can equip heavy special objects. Characters can equip objects in squares they occupy without ever picking up the object.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
1. Yes. Equipped objects are not held.
2. No, but I'm guessing they never picked the objects up. Characters without super strength can equip heavy special objects. Characters can equip objects in squares they occupy without ever picking up the object.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
I don't agree with you about #1. I still say even equipping it you have to pick it up to equip it.
I'll go along with #2 answer since it sounds right and even after I posted it I consider editing the post and deleting it since I felt you could pick up special objects too.
But on #3 & 4, and it may have been an old rules edition that has me thinking of it. But I've always understood the rules that if you carry a figure that they cannot do any kind of action that allowed them to do an attack after being carried. Yes they could use outwit, perplex, or prob. Buts thats it.
1) Yes, once equipped, they are no longer "holding" the object for gameplay purposes.
1a) If they used a MOVE action or were carried onto the objects, they'd have to wait for the next turn to use a POWER action to equip the objects.
2) They can be equipped if the character's either in the square or holding it. It's typically much easier for a character to hold it before equipping it, but it's not necessary to do so.
3&4) Being carried prevents you from taking costed actions. FREE actions are not among them.
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Carry
Before beginning movement, you may choose one adjacent friendly character of smaller size that isn’t a Vehicle or holding an object. If you do, modify speed -1 for each character chosen (for this move). When movement ends, place the chosen character adjacent if possible. If you do, the chosen character can’t be given a costed action this turn (and has been ‘carried.’)
5) Bat-Knight can only carry one character like anyone else his size, and gets -1 speed when doing so. Now that I think of it though, I do kind of debate whether he'd get that due to the We Will Make Things Right Again trait. I think he would, as him using the Carry ability would be him using a power/ability and he has KC, but I see a counter-argument of just overall rules being the cause of it. I'm about 80% sure he gets the -1 due to the first argument... but still, only one passenger.
Basically all of page 35 is about equipment.
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EQUIPMENT
“Equipment” is an additional game element (usually a special object) that can be “equipped” to a character. When you “equip” equipment to a character, that character becomes an “equipped character.” The rules for equipment apply the same to all types unless otherwise noted. The key rules of equipment are:
• When you equip something, you place it on the equipped character’s card (off the map) and that character can use the EFFECT ability as listed.
• A character can only have one game element equipped to it at a time.
• When an equipped character is KO’d, replaced, or is equipped again, the currently equipped item becomes unequipped.
• You can only equip standard characters.
If an effect causes an equipped standard character to become non-standard (such as becoming or ), they stay equipped, but can’t use the equipment’s EFFECT ability. An equipped character that joins a force that isn’t its starting force (such as via Mind Control) also can’t use the equipment’s EFFECT ability while it’s part of that other force. EQUIPMENT-OBJECTS
An object that can be equipped is known as an “Equipment-Object,” though it is often just called “equipment.”
Equipment-Objects have some special keyphrases that relate to equipping and unequipping them, though some effects may also directly instruct you to equip or unequip.
Equip (Friendly) - A friendly character in this square or holding this object has “POWER: Equip this object.”
Equip (Any) - Any character in this square or holding this object has “POWER: Equip this object.”
Unequip (KO) - When unequipped, KO this object.
Unequip (Drop) - When unequipped, place this object in the previously equipped character’s square.
If an Equipment-Object doesn’t specify what happens when unequipped, it is assumed to be Unequip (KO).
(My emphasis on "in this square.")
Just to show off more shenanigans, let's say I'm running a light special object, such as Asgardian Shield from the TMT starter. I can have a character who has Sidestep run up, grab the object, and come back. It can then Sidestep and drop the object onto a friendly character's square within that move. Character B can then equip it, and you've got a turn 1 equip. Similarly, you can use Telekinesis to move one onto the other's square and the character can equip it.
Just because it's significantly relevant, a bit from page 25 on picking up objects.
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PICKING UP OBJECTS
All characters have the inherent ability to pick up a light object. Anytime an object is picked up, it becomes “held.” Object Pick Up
Once per move, this character may either pick up one light object (holding it) or put down one held object, in a square it moves through or is adjacent to.
Sorry to be a jerk with a wall of text, but it seems to be necessary here. No offense intended. It's just a pretty fundamental concept, so it might take a bit to break through how you previously understood it.
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I don't agree with you about #1. I still say even equipping it you have to pick it up to equip it.
Then find in the rules were it says you have to.
Quote
But on #3 & 4, and it may have been an old rules edition that has me thinking of it. But I've always understood the rules that if you carry a figure that they cannot do any kind of action that allowed them to do an attack after being carried. Yes they could use outwit, perplex, or prob. Buts thats it.
Why can they use outwit, perplex or prob?
"I think it is very important to consider your venue a community and not a commodity." - tyroclix
1. Yes, assuming the special object was equipped and not picked up.
2. Super Strength is only required to pick up Heavy objects, but equipped objects aren't held, otherwise characters without it wouldn't even be able to start the game equipped with them.
3. The only thing you can't be given is a costed action.
4. Yes
All of those are perfectly legal, even under 2014 Rules as far as I can tell, so the rule change probably isn't your problem. This situation is something I've seen happen a lot, especially when new players visit a venue or players go to a new venue. They'll play using "different" rules that are actually the correct ones, so it'll look like they're cheating.
I don't agree with you about #1. I still say even equipping it you have to pick it up to equip it.
You might say that, but the rules don't.
Quote : Originally Posted by Nightwing-fan
But I've always understood the rules that if you carry a figure that they cannot do any kind of action that allowed them to do an attack after being carried. Yes they could use outwit, perplex, or prob. Buts thats it.
You've understood the rules incorrectly. A character can not be given a non-free action after being Carried. Performing any action as FREE or at NO COST is still and has always been legal. This is why you can use Outwit and Perplex after being Carried; because they are FREE actions. Not because they have something inherently saying that you can use them after being Carried.
I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but a lot of Wizkids "wording" on "How you can do this, but you can't do that" since the rules changed has gotten me so frustrated I feel at times like chucking it all out and just walking away.
The "wording" is called the rules. Maybe the judge didn't do a good job of showing you the rules, but how Free Actions work and "Moving"/"Placing" being different concepts are extremely basic rules that have not changed. (I am not sure how you have 3,000+ posts on a Heroclix forum but do not understand this.)
The judge and Wizkids did nothing wrong here.
Last edited by Wolverazio; 04/29/2018 at 10:31..
Reason: Ad hominem removed