But how does that relate to my Red Skull question?
When he takes damage from his Cosmic Cube power, he goes from activating the power( to use outwit),then takes damage. He does not have Outwit on the dial( only the Cosmic Cube power) . Does the Outwit remain?

Ah, but that's where the problem lies...... does he truly "lose" the power if he changes from "possessing" it to "using" it? That's what this boils down to.

Wow... I just realized that I was the first to notice (or at least point out) a major gameplay issue with a new game effect.... which will effect how the effect is played.
I feel like the guy who first asked about if the Sentinel can "swing"... or if Lockjaw can "slide"..... or..... well, that's the only one I can think of other than "does X let you do Y?" with powers.... but the PAC answers that.

......too bad there's not enough room in my signature LOL!!!!

I would think you would have to possess it in order to lose it. Regardless, this is kind of an extension of the Moon Knight Special Power issue with his "I Perplex myself and then damage myself, do I lose the +1?"-ness.

Again, is the rule for this (losing HSS during an attack) actually spelled out anywhere or is it "common knowledge?"

If the power still shows on his dial after he takes the penetrating damage, the Outwit would still remain.
The flaw in this argument is that a CSA team member (pre-LoSH) actually possessed the Probability Control power. Now they possess a power that functions like Probability Control but now cannot be Outwitted since they don't actually possess the Probability Control power itself. You can argue that requiring a token to be given is a restriction, but the character still possessed the actual power.
Surfer can only use HSS in this case, and the power on his dial is not the same. They don't have the same name and thus are not the same power.
Here's some more information from the newly updated Heroclix General FAQ:
Looking at the second question listed there, it can be read to imply that even if you have a PAC power granted naturally by a Special Power, the power granted by the SP is not exactly the same as the PAC power. Therefore, the actual HSS and Cosmic Speed-granted HSS are not the same, so after losing the actual HSS, Surfer would have to stop.

The difference is it is the Special Power that is giving him the Outwit. as long as that Special Power remains, his Outwit stays. If he outwits something and then takes damage thereby losing the Special Power but gaining Outwit (going from click 4 to click 5) then that Outwit from the SP would be lost. However, due to the dial design, it would free up Skull to use his Outwit he actually has on the dial.

The simplest way I can explain it is this:

Click 1 he has Hypersonic Speed.

Click 2 he has a Special Power that when activated allows him to use HSS option 1 only at range.

To use HSS via the Special Power you have to activate the Special Power.

When Surfer takes a click, he is no longer using the brown square - he goes to the white square (which he has not activated) and he can't make 2 actions in the same turn unless one of them is a free action.

Is it 100% crystal clear? No - there hasn't been an official ruling specifically on the subject (whether it needs it or not is debatable). But to argue otherwise would require some sort of proof. You'd have to demonstrate why HSS would carry through the different powers. I find 0 support for that reasoning right now so I am confident on how I'd rule.

Of course I've been wrong before. The rules still don't support the ruling that soaring figures with Leap/Climb can attack grounded figures, but it was ruled that way anyway, so who knows...

I don't think it actually is a rule. It's just an interaction between two long-standing rulings:

1) Powers are lost when they are no longer showing on your dial.

2) Mystics feedback/critical miss damage happens immediately and does not wait for the action to completely resolve.

Thus when you lose HSS, you lose the ability to make that special hit-and-run move.


I would rule that Cosmic Speed is not Hypersonic Speed, and therefore there is no continuation, but HeroClix tends to rule on intent, so I could easily see it go the other way.

It is not spelled out anywhere but it is implied in the ruling of Flurry

Mystic (et al) retaliation is immediate so its effects occur at the instant of the actual attack

As to the argument of this thread, I very reluctantly agree with the more rules lawyeresque interpretation from Tyroclix

I would rather go with intent but inane and counter-intuitive judegments are far more common

Um, thanks?

I think my "rules lawyeresque interpretation" is the intent.

To me, allowing Surfer to keep using HSS when he goes from the Brown square to the white square would be identical to this situation:

Player 1 has U Brainiac and uses his Outwit to take away Superman's HSS. P1 then moves R Knockout adjacent to Brainiac and ends his turn. Opposing player attacks and hits Brainiac knocking him onto his RCE clicks. Player 2 now wants to use Superman's HSS. P1 could not argue that Outwit remains due to the adjacency of Knockout and Brainiac creating "continuous" Outwit via their SE TA.

I think almost all would agree the above sitch would mean Superman would get back his HSS.

But you're using a villain in the example. No one sides with Brainiac.

I think you should use an example with soft fluffy puppies outwitting recently powdered babies playing with gerber daisies. Who could choose sides against either?