It's a subforum at the top of this forum. This link will take you directly there, but of course it is good to know how to get there normally. With regard to this particular question, I already submitted it to The Final Word forum so that has been taken care of. You won't see the question in the forum right now because it takes moderator approval for posts to show up, but the next time a member of the rules posse reviews the posts there, it will appear.

Thanks for sending it to the Final Word, but I don't see this as the same as The Question or Batman Beyond.

I suppose it could be ruled that the only way SSI gets the +/-2 is if he uses it to activate BT.

Yeah, I can see your side of the argument Questions. This actually crossed my mind when I was trying to give an answer. The logic I used (not sure if it was 100% right or not) is that I've seen people in the past use the word "also" in regards to perplexing other characters in addition to the first target.

Per the wording in the players guide, this logic also seems to be supported. (see bold)

The difference between Super Skrull: Illuminati and Question / Batman Beyond is that they are unable to use perplex normally to target other characters. SS: Illuminati is still able to use perplex normally, targeting characters other than himself.

I think if he does that, though, then he has chosen to use Perplex normally and can't get the +/-2 for himself. If he choses the +/-2 option for himself (makes himself the target of the initial Perplex), then he has chosen an option that only allows him to use it on himself and he can't affect anyone else with it.

But aren't you kind of reading the bolded portion into the power, when that really isn't there?

By its very nature, perplex affects only 1 target. So it's natural that a variation on Perplex would still specify who the one target can be. That is a common thread in all three figs (AA Question, Batman Beyond, and SS: Illum.). However, BT is an exception to that basic rule that perplex affects just one person..

I guess my issue with what you're suggesting is that even with the limitation of "OR he can modify any one of his own combat values," why would that stop BT from triggering by what's still a use of perplex?

Sorry for the conflicting viewpoint, we're basically arguing semantics here.

Not at all. If is taken straight from the special power and it should apply.

Even though BT affects more than one character, it is still limited by any limitations that the special power places onto that use of Perplex. So The Questions use of Perplex, even with BT, is still limited to only modifying the combat values of opposing characters, Batman's use of Perplex is still limited to only targetting himself, and Super Skrull: Illuminati's use of Perplex, when he picks the second option, should be confined to his own combat values.

Conversly, Mr. Fantastic can use BT to use Perplex in a more expansive way than it would normally be used since the benefit of his special power is applied to the targets of the BT as well. For your argument to hold up, his use of Perplex should only be normal Perplex, not the special Perplex that he can use.

Right, but that's why I quoted what I did to support my logic that Brilliant Tactician's additional targets are separate from the initial perplexing, which is why (I'm not 100% on this being why) that you can perplex an enemy down to trigger brilliant tactician, regardless of whether he shares a keyword or TA with you, and then use perplex on all the friendlies that do.

That's the way I see it as well.

SSI might not be able to Perplex an opposing figure +/- 1, himself +/-2, and his teammates +/-1, but he should be able to perplex himself +/-2 and then his teammates +/-1.

He can perplex himself by 2 and that's it OR perplex everyone including himself by 1

"Initial" might have been the wrong word for the Player's Guide to use. (Although when it was written it might actually have been an initial Perplex.) It's probably better for it to say "initiating." The Perplexing is all one Perplex. It isn't one Perplex followed by a bunch of other Perplexes. This is why Dr. Strange only rolls once for his Wand of Watoomb. (And it is probably the reason that the ruling on Dr. Strange was changed to one roll in the first place.) That is also why any limitations/enhancements on the Perplex apply to all uses of the Perplex, not just the initiating Perplex.

This is all very perplexing.

I agree with Questions, the Brilliant Tactician=SSI chooses an initial target for perplex normal use +/-1 or himself +/-2 and then everyone else that shares a keyword/team symbol benefits from the use of perplex through the feat of BT. Now these beneficiaries can't be the initial target of perplex or follow up of perplex. So if SSI uses perplex normally the +/-1 can affect friendly characters, but if he chooses himself for the +/-2 then only he benefits from this use of perplex. The way the character using BT uses perplex is the same way the characters will benefit from the feat. That is how I read your quote from the players guide.

It seems they submitted it to The Final Word, so just a matter of time before we have an answer.

Wrong wording in the players guide? No offense, but that just sounds really absurd. I could understand if you said I was interpreting it wrong, but to say that the guide itself (i.e. the word of god!) is using the wrong terminology. Though you might have a slight point about the "when it was written" part... but who's to say that it has since changed?

And as for the limitations and enhancements, this goes on a case by case basis. SI Mr. Fantastic can use Brilliant Tactician and perplex a bunch of figures with the fantastic four team ability... and let's say that the power pack are on the team. Well some of the figures he is perplexing would get +2 because they share a keyword, and some only can benefit from the +1 because they're only sharing the TA and have no joint keywords with Mr. F.

And I don't disagree with the perplex happening all at once. In fact, I recall back at the time of SI when Strange was released... there was way over half of the people saying that it should be multiple rolls for W.o.W. (including Oranges), I was one of the few that actually stood behind the one roll. It got ruled on the realms to be multiple rolls, but then the next players guide came out and it was changed to one roll.

I wasn't saying that the perplex wasn't happening at the same time, technically it is. I'm just saying that there is an initial perplex that triggers it, but then there are subsequent targets affected after that.

I just don't see the Player's Guide as a work of art. Many things in it could be better worded. This is one of those things. If it makes more sense to say the interpretation is wrong then I'll take that route. Ultimately it is one Perplex and not an initial Perplex followed by separate Perplexes.

First, it shouldn't be on a case by case basis. It should be applied uniformly. What applies to Mr. Fantastic should apply to The Question should apply to.... That said, it has been applied uniformly. The ruling on BT as it applies to Mr. Fantastic is the one that has been applied to The Question and so on. The issue here is how to apply that uniform ruling to Super Skrull: Illuminati. Applying it uniformly, it should be done as I described above.

That has no relevance to how Super Skrull: Illuminati uses BT. That is a function of BT, not the special power.

I think it took a little while longer to change (it wasn't until June of 2010 that the change occured), but I believe the reason that it did change is that the rules posse came to realize that BT was a single Perplex and since it was a single Perplex, Dr. Strange would only roll once and that single roll should be applied to all characters affected.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree. I believe that it is a single Perplex that can affect more than one target. You believe that it is an initial Perplex followed by other Perplexes. I don't think Dr. Strange supports that interpretation.