No? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. No changes have been made that affects what characters can be called in.

And just to clarify this point a bit, you are not required to have a character on your force that is actually higher points than your ID characters. Yeah, for the ID Cards themselves, you need to for them to be useful. But you can assign ID characters that you can't actually call in, which is helpful for the Resources that use the cards.

Minor correction: During force construction, you can put more than one character with the same name on your sideline. When you place your force, you pick which one will be your ID Character for the game.

Example: You could stock all five Shifting Focus Batman figures on your sideline. But when you place your force, you have to limit yourself to one as a Call-In option.

Kaiba wasn't completely incorrect in his statement, because you can bring more than one potential ID character with your Sideline and choose after you see your opponent's force. I was addressing his hyperbole in making it sound like you could pick from 20 or 50 options at the moment you played the ID card.

-J

Im not sure about some of the ideas mentioned, given the cards that are already out. It use to be reigned in as others have mentioned. However, some of the changes in the new rules does make them easier to abuse. I would be cool with the character being given a double power action that doesn't deal pushing damage to call in.

I think what my issue with ID cards is that I'm comparing them to resources. I liked resources. By far my favorite 'Age' of Clix was when we had 3-4 different batteries, Phoenix Forces, Box's and the like supporting some of the most diverse team builds that I've ever seen. The recent Silver Age ROC tournaments reminded me of those.

Resources, I've always felt, enhanced to a sometimes absurd degree what was on the board in front of you. ID Cards, in contrast, are literally throw away points. They're incredibly useful, don't get me wrong. I've just felt like the new push that WizKids has been making was in favor of 'Team Builds' (detracting from 'off board' material), where ID Cards are as off board as you can really get. They're single use Artilery Strikes, whereas Resources and even to an extent Feats and Relics and Equipment modify your existing pieces.

I enjoy them for flavor. I like them as a Round Table, or on the Quinjet, but man is it boring to see them as they exist in the meta.

First let me start by saying I don't use ID cards in anything other than the competitive scene. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that when we look at the casual side of heroclix (aka if the X-Men and the JSA devoted equal recourses to a fight who would win) ID cards are not a great game element. That said I think ID cards are perfect for the competitive part of the game. To back up my opinion here are my counters to the top reasons I have seen for people hating ID cards.

1) they detract from diversity: you're absolutely right, they do make for less diverse games. When we're looking at the competitive game less diversity is a good thing. Look at chess both players have identical teams and the result is the game typically results in the best player winning. If heroclix is going to be played competitively not just anyone should be able to win.

2) they're not new player friendly: once again this is true, but this is not a bad thing. the bad thing is introducing these game elements to players before they are ready for the game to be more challenging. Once it is time for a player to get into the more challenging aspects of the ID cards add to the experience, instead of having to think about just the 1-5 figures on the other side of the board you could be dealing with 10 or more game elements. The more game elements there are the harder it is to know everything you're opponent can do, which means a higher challenge level for you to win, which results in more skill and game knowledge effecting the results.

3) they're too cheap for what they do: the power to points ratio only makes sense for character design, stop trying to assign a similar value to other game elements. The only way you can balance the point cost of a game element that is not a character is to balance it based on similar game elements. All ID cards are 5 points and they all more or less do the same thing, so they're all balanced. The only exception might be the shield ID cards because they use a keyword instead of a name they might have been better balanced at 10 points.

4) they take away from the strategy of the game: this is just wrong. No element can take away from the strategy of the game, just change it.

Anyways those are my opinions, I know most of you will disagree with them but that doesn't really matter. ID cards appear to be here to stay and I for one am happy about it, they make the game more challenging and more interesting.

Good point. I was thinking you had to choose one when first building your force, and stick with it. Well shucks, then I've been overly-limiting myself unnecessarily.

Yes, that's what I was addressing, too. The ID options aren't as flexible as we (I) might like them to be. I sometimes think it would be cool to have them work like Shifting Focus, but I can see that becoming abusive. As it is, Shifting Focus is very powerful, and the figures aren't that point-costly. But paying only 5 points for that mechanic is absurd. They could add an option to the ID card mechanic where, for example, they have the option to pay 50 points (or 70, or whatever seems reasonable), and then have up to three figures on your sideline, which fit the ID call-in requirements. Then those three are your "Shifting Focus" guys for that game.

Hey, I acknowledged it in my first post.

Let's stick with Kaiba's Hulk example. It's not like the opponent was caught by surprise. The ID card requires you to show which character can be called in, and they even tell you to have its starting click showing. You know which characters are capable of triggering the ID as well. If you can't address that challenge, then you probably weren't ready for other possible avenues of attack.

Now... that's speaking from the "meta" side, from a mechanics perspective. That's why I'm more brusque in my responses.

If you're going to argue from a "no fun" perspective, then I'll switch back to being sympathetic... somewhat. Because if we're going to think in terms of what's "fun" to play with and against, then we've got a much different argument in place.

The "no fun" argument against IDs is the same kind of "no fun" that should be resolved through player restraint, not banning entire game mechanics. The players who would abuse ID cards to make the game "no fun" would find another way to be a spoilsport if IDs were removed.

But on the flip side, I can offer my own reasons why ID cards are "fun" to have in the game. From a "lore" perspective, I love being able to include more characters in a game. Running a Berlantiverse TV lineup and calling in the supporting cast with ID cards is fun. Having an ally swoop in and give an assist before disappearing again has already been identified as a staple from the Marvel vs Capcom video games. I also think of it like the "single-take" scene in the Avengers movie, especially the scene where Iron Man dove down and helped Captain America's fight before zooming away.

From a player perspective, I love anything that makes more of my collection usable. You think it's terrible that I can have six characters on the board and another six on my sideline for Call-In. I think that's awesome, because I get to use twice as many figures. I get to play personal favorite more often, and I get to use figures I might never fit into a team otherwise. That's fun. That's adding value to my HeroClix collection.

So... if you're going to insist I give up all that fun because you can't manage the single most telegraphed attack in HeroClix? Yah, I'm going to get a bit snarky.

-J

Couldn’t you just alpha strike with a ID card? Assuming an open map. I really think ID’s are over powered for the cost. However, map choice is also a very viable option in countering ID’s.

FWIW, I'm generally ambivalent regarding the IDs. Yeah, they can be used as you describe (and I did just that, the only time I used one). I just despise homogeneity above all else in this game, as well as "Well, why WOULDN'T you play that?" elements. Always have, always will.

It's not coincidence that the most used ID call in's bypass the map or terrain partially/entirely.

Nick Fury: Improved Targeting: Elevated, Hindering, Characters
Cosmic Spider-man: Improved Targeting: Hindering, Elevated, Blocking
Green Arrow: Improved Targeting: Hindering, Elevated, Characters
Atom: a who gets to be placed before attacking

Quite the opposite from being a counter, a terrain heavy map is a strength in their corner

Who says I can't hate ID cards AND most resources AND team bases?

I'm with you there... whether it was playing the same ID cards, or the same Resource, or the same Feats, or the same STOPP crew. It's boring. I've never fully understood how people have fun with that.

-J

Because winning is fun.

Or that's what they state as their reason for breaking the game for everyone else. Of course winning is fun, but what's actually fun is the journey to get to the W. I think they're missing that part of it. Even a close L can be tons of fun.

Or actually, "fun" isn't really the word; it's "satisfying". My goal for this game is to have a satisfying experience. For everyone to have that.

Man, im impressed with the flow of this discussion and all the amazing points...whether I agree with them or not. Much rep to oldlady for moving the coversation from the evidence thread.

I am all for ID cards, and many other game elements. For the simple point ravenproject made that they should not be held to the same scale and design as the main game, but rather an extension of it. I also agree with him on the points about it taking away from the fun of the game, too.

Many of the concerns around game elements can be simply rectified by setting parameters for the format of the event, whether at a store or at home with friends. There is nothing fun about your opponent bringing game elements like resources or ID cards and you weren't prepared and came empty handed. When you are prepared, you can have just as much fun in the higher complexity environment.

I feel like its not even worth talking about those that constantly use the same figures and/or game elements as they probably can't duplicate their winning results with other stuff. Normally I challenge them to challenge themselves to even try. Lol

EXACTLY.

Don't just say 400 points modern and call it good... yeah, people are going to min/max.

400 points, modern, no resources.
300 points, golden, no tactics
500 points, golden

simple tweaks that will force people out of their box... but you don't have to ban anything and keep your players from wanting to come because you don't allow anything...