Not always. How about things like...

"So, you are from out of town huh? Welcome to our venue, always nice to have new players. Holy ####, look at that army... why are the SS Arty working alongside the BR VTOLs?"

"So? I dont care about the fluff."

"Yeah, but everyone knows that Jacob Bannson and the Swordsworn hate each other and <blahblahblah>..."

"I dont care."

"Well, that isnt a very fun army. Nobody playing against you is going to have any fun!"

"You arent having fun? Maybe you should withdraw from the tournament so I can get a free win."

"Man, you are an #######, why are you fielding such cheese?"

"Because I want to win the prize."

"Yeah, but nobody else is having any fun!"

"So?"

"But all my friends and I play faction pure."

"I dont care."

"I think you are disgusting for selling the prize on ebay!"

"I dont care."

"###! I'm not voting for you for fellowship!"

"Since you and your friends are all playing faction pure armies and I'm playing uber-cheese, chances are I'll be taking home the champ prize anyway. Which is worth more on ebay anyway."

"BM, can you come here for a minute?"

*BM does*

*player tells BM about what was just said*

BM: "I cant do anything about him, he's an ####### but quite correct. No, I cant get the venue to kick him out, he isnt being disruptive."

Next week the guy shows up again and wins.
Next week the guy shows up again and wins.
Next week the guy shows up but 2 old players dont.
Next week the guy shows up but another 2 old players dont.
Next week the guy shows up and plays the only guy left.
Next week the old players are all playing something new.



Anyway, I hate this sort of thing and am not espousing it (certainly would never do it). Just kinda putting forward a worst-case scenario. Gamers arent always the most social sort. I know some real #######s (know them but dont like them) that would TOTALLY be willing to behave in this manner to win a prize worth $30 on ebay.

You cannot rely on peer pressure to adjust play balance issues. That is all I'm saying.

Yeah the scenario seems ripe for abuse. I cannot change this, and I own nowhere near enough units to abuse the rules. So I _choose_ to view this as a challenge, and start thinking what a noninfiltrate army could do in this scenario against a variety of armies.

1) Big damage, multiple targets, kill particular units fast to clear space
2)Have cheaper infantry units ready to fill the holes, they offer the smallest bases, JJ might be necessary to get there
3)Arty seems too slow for the most part, probably pass on it
4)AntiP could be help or hinder depending on enemy composition
5)Transport to get infantry close enough to base
6)Make your turns _fast_, an infiltrate army pays for it with something, so you'll probably have the stronger army, and you'll need lots of turns to catch up after the tide is turned.
7)Probably go balistic heavy, I forsee a preponderance of infantry
8)I believe vehicles offer the best points to damage to orders ratio, so some of them for sure.

Against SYB's extremely rules dependant (and evil) army, if you can kill say half of the VTOL's fast and pack the gaps with infantry. You could rack points fast enough to at least make it interesting.
There! Whadda ya think? I'm going to need all the help I can get so please post your ideas.

Here's an idea for a question for Draddog: does he see something we are missing that makes the scenario not so bad. If he answers yes, then we go look for it, if he answers no or doesn't answer, then at least we've brought it to the attention of someone who could maybe get it modified. Good question or bad? Thoughts?

Liao should be able to counter this with the Targe by repeating. Basing 2 opponents, shooting and cooling. Most of the "I'll push to die" arguements are ignoring that the opponent will target and kill units - once something is dead, it's replaced on the tower. I think that's going to be the key to this scenario - can you set yourself up to displace opponents figs and then base yourself.

I think the big problem with this scenerio is that you could play pure faction liao with 10 atv plus whatever else liao you have to hit 450 and win almost everytime without resorting to anything that is even close to abuse. In fact if you gave such a army to a newbie who understood that basing the tower with the atvs would give him a bunch a vc3s it would be awefully tough to beat him

It could be simply fixed if they just included the other 2 VCs in the final Victory Points count and not just consider VC3 for winning.

When I first read it, I read it as just VC3 was changed to the basing the tower and thought VC1 and VC2 were still counted up and winner determined normally (whoever had the most VCs).

This certainly opens up a whole can of worms now that I actually know the victory conditions.

Lots and lots of infiltrators for me now unless they change it.

Well I was going to suggest the old Highlander Lego to the back of the head, but I don't think Kelly or Draddog would like me suggesting such violence.

The funny thing is, they had already come up with a much fairer way of doing this in the first couple of scenarios that they ever did, and I don't understand why they didn't use this now. Instead of having each piece that touches the tower earning a VC 3 point for its' owner each turn, make it so that who ever have MORE points touching the tower gets A VC 3 point on their turn.

This would kill the strategy you guys are talking about as all it would take would be a light mech or ICE and you already outpoint the cheap infantry everyone is suggesting. If it is already surrounded, a space could be cleared with a few RoTS VTOLS, Bart Bradshaw, artillery, or other Anti personnel units. Lets say two RoTS VTOLS, Light Horse Blade (used it in last weeks scenario, SOB can be a real pain in the butt if you keep him moving :), along with some arty, repair vechile, and some infantry. Opponent is using just a few cheap infantry and nothing else. Sine the opponent has nothing to really shoot with, goign first or second doesn't matter

First two orders Balacs move in with Antipersonnel and at least one will hit, chewing up the closest infantry squads. If both hit then at least two or three should die outright, leaving enough room for the Blade to base. If the other player got first turn, he'll have one point to your none as turn one ends. Turn two, he doesn't get points as you most likely outpoint him. Yes, he could have been using more expensive infantry, but that seems to go against the whole push to death and win tactic since it would take a long time for these infantry to die. Either way, he's going to have to deal with your mech, and should not really have enough to take it down unless he gets lucky with a capture if you had to base his infantry (this being the case, might want to bring a higher defense mech just in case). So your turn comes around, and bingo, the score is tied. Now you can get down to pounding the hell out of the rest of his infantry. VTOLs can push if they wish, you can drop arty, the mech can stomp if touching anyone, or you can move your own infantry up to get shots in next turn. Anyway you slice it, your opponent is now screwed.

I know this is all hypothetical and only applies IF they change how VC 3 is determined, but I believe it DOES show how much more interesting the game can be with this change, as now you have to balence the need to control the tower verses taking on your opponents units. Yes someone could take and atlas or jupiter and probably not have to many problems holding the tower, but it would most certainly come under constant bombardment from artillery and the rest of the opponents units, and be in danger of capture and bypassing.

Comments?

I'm just going to wade through there with some AnP and Grapple Infantry. Kill whatever's in base and take VC3. And by the way, we do things differently down here in Hawaii. if you cheese out, you risk a "free" swim in the ala wai canal, which is basically the most nasty #### ### water on the island. (It's infamous for getting people infected with leptospirosis)

Player 2 has the advantage, but that's determined randomly.

So is there any way to put together an army that works both as Player 1 and Player 2?

One option is to be capturific.

In addition to the Sprints, or Trikes or ATVs, bring out the fastest infiltrating foot infantry you can. Infiltrate them into base contact with enemy units on your side of the building.

Try to capture as much as you can, thus taking it out in one turn.

Once a unit is captured, reposition in base contact with the building.

The problem for Player 1 is you only have 3 actions per turn, while your opponent starts the game 10 or 11 points up.

Command vehicles, particularly Command vehicles with single use command would seem beneficial.

Apparently the old stats team for WK got rehired to do the scenarios.

This is proly what I'm gonna do becuse that way I don't need to "lose" initive in order to win, and I KNOW some ****er is gonna read this thread and use SYBs tactics against me. (Acually, the only reason I insult the person I KNOW would do this, is, well, becuse he has the units and I don't:p )
So, can any-body come up with an army that can kill of about three of the VTOLs/infaltrating infantry, and then get more VC3 in the time it takes for the remaining ones todie from pushing?
I'm thinking use lots of arty to kill off just over half all at once, (hopefully VERY early one) then base with some **** fast infantry (hoverbikes, fenrirs, ect... ect...)
The other thing I might want to do is run some **** powerfull unit to kill infantry in one turn, breaking the formations, meaning he can't push 5 units at once...
Hmmm...

well one tactic for Liao players might be to go for Awe, Granted it's not a sure thing, but making him lose an order might slow down how quickly he can kill himself (Jeebus I dont believe I just said that...)

YES!!!! I'll run catilia whats-her-name and some Di-towed feild artys, and then SW Fenrirs!!! I WIN!!!:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

No.

SYB responded to the idea of using artillery to take out the VTOLS. After turn one and you ahve placed your pogs. He will move the remaining VTOLs into the blast radius. Now he has 6 vc3 and you have jack, and when your artillery hits, he as 6 dead vtols (and 1 infantry). game over, he wins 6 to nil.d Artillery won't work.

But if you bring the AA (either the new ones, or the ones who do AP damage) or use Streak missle boats at the edge of your DZ. (14" range, and 3" to edge of DZ, you can hit almost half way across the board. Might be able to get 3 sprints on first turn. opponent has only 3 vc3 and next turn you rush up your fast infantry placing maybe 6 infantry in base w/ the control tower. Try to use AWE to take away an action. Third action you are now behind 6 to 9, and that army has to sit to let action tokens lift. now it is 12 to 12.

This might be the way to beat this type of army.

But the question that arises is: Do you really expect to see this type of army? The counter is just as specific as the army. against a real combined arms army, the missle boats would be a liability.

My Bad. I was thinking more along the lindes of countering WarFlials infantry army by breaking the formations ASAP then clearing out room for my own to base. Also, the AWE *said in a Awe inspiring voice* Means that, with formations broke, it should take forever for him to kill of his few remaining units, meaning I can get more VC3 points than him and win. Best thing is, this army or something that uses the same tactics might be very reliable and potent.

Well, I wouldnt run an all infiltrating infantry army, if for no other reason than Highlanders/Republic dont have enough infiltrators to pull it off. I'm pretty sure the longest infiltrator we have are 6" base speed infantry. And the strat is too dependant on winning init. I'm still working on a fluff logical HL/RotS/merc army, for in the unlikely event that I'm willing to drive 4 hours each way to a venue to play. I hate living in a backwater.

But if I were to field an army of lots and lots and lots of ATVs, no two of them would be in formation. Put 10 basing the building but not each other. Put another ring of 15 around them, again not basing anyone else. Another ring, another ring, another ring until run out of points. Arty can still hit multiple at once, but things like RotS Balacs arent going to do more than 3 damage per unit per turn. Maybe you run 6 Balacs... shoot at the same Liao ATV with all 3, it dies. My turn, I plug the gap with a spare. Next turn you use balacs 4, 5, 6 to do it again... I plug the gap again. Anyway, arty is important for if you lose init. SW Padillas might work nicely since range isnt really an issue and those things can put out a lot of firepower. SS Tank ArrowIV would probably work even better. Turn 1, drop enough pogs to 6 damage everything within a radius. Your turn, you do something to try to stop my arty. My turn, pogs resolve and blow a gap. I've used 0 orders that turn, so my other three are dedicated to plugging the gap with MY units (probably infiltrators), then stopping your efforts to silence my arty.