Good job StormKnight - just about what I figured would happen. I agree with your assessment

I'm thinking that loss of easy break and the addition of surge\double time will be enough to keep the big bounders\chargers in check.

Throw in the new factional abilities and arching fire and we have a whole new game to find 'broken' stuff in.

At this point I'd be very surprised not to see the charge\bound values doubled for movement and I'm guessing the flyers will not be able to soar.

I guess we'll find out when the conversion rules come out.

Last night we wanted a nice quick, easy game so we went for sealed booster. Sometime this weekend when we have more time we'll probably play a big game with the v2 rules, and put cavalry and formations to the test.
The normal move on a Cav model is 5-7. Even doubled to 14 and with a range of 10 your effective range is 24, in which case many models can double time to contact you before you get to shoot (remember that you can contact with a move of 24 about an inch before you can shoot with a range of 24) The higher move cavalry (the fliers) will be able to tie down opponents from 28 away!
As for LEs, the only bounders or chargers I have are back from Lancers and still are in that 5-7 range. However, regardless of MB or moving figures, the bounder still has to end within firing range and I think with all the options in the new rules that will be a very dangerous thing to do. Furthermore, remember that in this game armies will be converging on the center objective of the field rather than hanging back. To be useful, the bounder will need to stay near the thick of things. All they are really getting is one early shot.
One of the problems with fighting against cavalry used to be that if you based them, they would just break (doing shakeoff damage) possibly, and escape before you could even push to attack them. Now, you have the option of surging, hitting a cav model in the back and then pushing next turn to hit it again. While I think its reasonable to guess that shakeoff damage will still exist in the final rules, I think these tactics will be quite effective against mounted models.
The vast majority of chargers and bounders fall in the 3-7 range. These won't be overpowered if doubled, but will be badly hurt if not. The small minority with higher moves account for much less of the old figures, and for figures that are less commonly available. While it is possible that some of these LEs will be too nasty, I don't think that will happen unless it was already nasty to begin with. Yes, Corphy will probably be evil in many situations. But according to most players he already was so nothing changes. Just because WK made a few figures poorly doesn't mean that most of people's collections should be hosed to fix them.

Also keep in mind with the 'fry a formation and necro Corphy back' that WK will almost certainly change the necromancy rules for the new victory conditions. If not, long range bounders will be the least of our worries!

Re: Double Time and Surge. According to the Alpha Rules (what else to call them?), Double Time takes a move action (p. 7), while Surge takes a close combat action(p. 8). So I don't think it is legal to both Double Time and Surge - a figure can never be given two actions in a single turn (p. 4, para. 6).

Also, Charge is Speed special ability, and one cannot use any Speed special abilities while using Double Time (p. 7).

So, that means Skyros can move 10 and attack, taking no damage, (Charge), or move 10 and attack taking a click of damage (Surge), or move 20 and not attack (Double Time).

With Bound undefined I can't draw any firm conclusions. For now I'd say it will act like Charge, with a Ranged Attack allowed. So Corpheus would move 10 and Range Attack (Bound), 10 and close combat, taking a click (Surge), or move 20 and not attack at all (Double Time).

Oh, how fun is proofreading and playtesting? WK ain't no fools - they're getting this for free. (Wave to the WK employee(s) reading this!)

[edit]Typo[/off edit]

Ok fells will only b able to base 28in away going around terrian. Figures with flight must turn off fligth to double time.

If you double the printed value to charge/bound here are something you have to look at ( there is shakeoff by the way).

We both get our objectives that are close to us so we have to fit over the middle. So I set up a wall and MB things as the guard the objective. Kermit will be able to cover 26in of area. Bakus will be able to cover 28in. Scorpems and Sislith will have 20in range. Now since the bounders have the foot speed and the sword they can also surge to protect eahother. This is not taking into account that once I shoot I can move figures up to surge the next turn or to block LOS.

Uprising has a set max bound is 4. In the current enviroment the difference between those bounders and anything but Corpheus is is 3in. Now when you allow them to double that you also double the difference between the lower bounders and chargers and the higher ones. So now your looking at what use to be a 3 in difference becomes a 6 in difference.

One reason for the rules change was to even things out. To level the power level again. It will be interesting to see how your game this weekend goes with your ideas. Keep in mind that this stuff has to hold up against top level players who have access to the top LEs.

Having read the rules, and walked through a few of the figs, here’s my take on how any conversion of 1.0 figs to 2.0 will work.

1) There will be no figure errata. 1.0 figs will have exactly the values and symbols they have now.

2) All 1.0 figs will be melee specialists, by virtue of having the sword attack type. For this reason, in the first release, melee will reign supreme.

3) WK will design new figs with the other attack types. This will coincide with the release of new SAs; an SA will have to be taken in context with its Attack or Movement Type, meaning that the same colored shape will have multiple effects, depending on what Type it is used on. (This should prompt a big Hurray! From those who love the idea of more SAs.)

4) Designing figs around their specific Attack, Move, etc Type will allow WK to ‘introduce’ Range, Magic (and other things?) into the system in a thoughtful manner. A basic melee game will be augmented by other abilities, and knowing this WK can avoid the Big Bound, Titan, MDF and other ‘mistakes’ made in v1.0, where certain figs/abilities were overpowered.

And that’s it. Feel free to save this and throw it back in my face when the actual implementation looks nothing like this at all! (#### budget model crystal ball!)

I think your right Balduran I. I said after they announced this at the meeting that it was them hitting the reset button. So on to your points

1) the whoel systme is built to take into account the old figures well. I agree there will be no changes.

2) That is exactly what I think. I like the idea now that I do not have to pack a charge to portect range units. The older figs can protect themselves which makes things fun. There is a couple of figre with ME and SA so I like the combinations.

3) This is how it was explained to me. Hex is a good example of this. Hex is a green square in the attack but if you have a sword it is healing and a if you have a wand its Hex. So this gives them the chance to add a lot of stuff.

4) Figures will become more specialized. Also by re introducing range back into the picture they can keep a better controll knowing how things worked in 1.0

Great minds think alike. (And... being wrong in a group is much less a blow to the ego than being wrong alone! :D)

So effectivly all my Sislith Bladesmen will be worthless garbage only being able to move 5 inches without pushing?

That's an unacceptable solution IHMO. You might as well take every charger ever made and throw them in the garbage.

Please try to justify to me a 51 point sislith figure that can only move 5 inches 10 if doubled while almost every other creature in existance moves 8 and doubles to 16. That just doesn't make sense.

I really hope you're both wrong otherwise my days in MK are quickly coming to an end. Hope you're listening to that Wizkids.

They killed chargers, and I dont think that was right. All that money invested in the 4 Horseman and mayne mounted LE's just went down the drain. If that fair to the players?

According to these rules, yup.

So what? I doubt it'll stay that way, for just the reasons you say. In fact, I doubt it so much that I'll put money on it.

I will bet anyone that both Charge and Bound will include some modifier to their speed. Rather like now, but maybe different.

I suspect that there will be a difference between Horseshoe Charge/Bound, and Foot Charge/Bound. I know I'd do it that way.

I like Army's idea of quadrupuling myself, for Horseshoe. Perhaps 2x without having to Double Time, 4x if used in conjunction with Double Time. Really let those mounted guys loose.

But as even a cursory look at the options available shows it's obvious why this type of thing wasn't in the Demo. It's got a lot of variables - a lot to look at and test. Heck, Bound isn't even in the SAC!

To talk of wasted investments and garbage figs at this point seems pretty... irrational.

Ok I knwo tap4blakc has the horseman but past hat how many peopel paid money to buy a horseman toplay with it?

I think we will see that mounts will get a little bit of different rules since they are mounts. Singel based chargers like Cent might just get hurt be the change

I actually agree with you that this is probably what WK will do. They will probably think that doing some sort of conversion is too complicated. Which means that very large numbers of old models will become unuseable, and their assurance that it is compatible is...well, by the letter true, but not by the spirit. The vast majority of bounders, chargers, and basic shooters will be worthless in 2.0.

If the LEs are so powerful that a rule change has to be made to keep them under control that elminates 95% of the bounders and chargers from being useable...well, I hate banning but I think it would be better to lose 5% than 95%.

Well, if you go with all of my conversion ideas they should actually change to bow type :)
But really, so what if they can surge to protect each other? Better to have the attacked model break away and have the support shoot at the attacker! Committing your missile troops into melee against the opponent's melee troops is generally not the best tactic.
I'm sorry I'm not really getting the situation you are talking about above. When you talk about getting your first objective then going for the second remember on a standrad table you are only 18" away from it or so. Many figures can be at the center in one turn. Partly I don't think the long range bound will matter because people will be well inside the bound+shooting range anyway. The reason bounders and chargers need the doubled move is not to be effective in combat, but to get to the fight at all!

If there are no changes and if things are as we have seen them, then the new system is very much NOT designed to take the old figures into account. Its been made with the vague idea that it will look enough alike that they can claim they are still playable, while actually making them unplayable so you have to buy all the new models if you want to keep playing with the new rules.

To be fair, I should also try some games with the old figures just keeping charge and bound values 'as is'. I'm guessing most of them won't be worth the plastic their made of, but I could be wrong. I also think its worth looking at the suggestion I made earlier that v1 models double their move when taking a movement action only, which would keep them exactly the same as they are now.
This whole thing of course comes from MK trying to fix what was a dumb idea in the first place, the printing the intended value as half and doubling for movement rather than printing the intended value and halving it when charging/bounding. They fixed this problem in HeroClix, and its good that they are fixing it now, but the fix is a wee bit late.
Sorry if I sound awfully uptight about all this. I've spend several hundred dollars on hundreds of figures for MK, and if v2 goes like its looking it will take several v2 sets worth of figures just to make up for all the ones that will become unuseable. And please keep in mind that my standards are very low - there are currently only 3 figures in the game I won't play with! But I think this will make bound/charge SO bad they will fall in that 'absolutely no point' category. You will have models paying lots of points for the ability to move fast and make high speed attacks that are some of the slowest models on the table.

Just making sure Wizkids understands the difference between being able to play rebellion figures in 2.0 and having the figures be at all useful in 2.0.

Being able to play rebellion figures in 2.0 simply isn't good enough.

I'm excited about the new rules and think they're great as long as they don't go overboard to try to tone down big charge and bound.

I'm willing to bet I'm still here after 2.0 but a wholesale slaughter of rebellion charge/bound figures wouldn't sit too well with me.

I'm confident Wizkids would not allow that to happen.

And after spending 1000s on plastic crack irrational is probably a compliment.

LOL! Touche, and good point.

My poitn about bounders surge to protect eachother is a plus in my book. Before you need to back a charger for protection.

My problem with bound and charge right now in 2.0 is it is way to easy to tie them up. I think mounts getting a little different treatment ( which is not going to happen).


Does it suck that right now most charger will not be usefull? Yes but for all those chargers I will gain more than enough other figures that can take their place cheaper.

I have spent as much money as just abot anyone else on these boards if not more (3-4 cases of rebellion alone).

I can say answers are coming and there is still time for any type of adjustments to be made can be made.