But Feats GRANT Powers. There appears to be some gray area about Traits GRANTING or BEING powers. Or so it seems.

Dang, where's Seth when you need him?

Let me add a different way to look at it.

It has been said that Outwit can counter powers that are possessed,
and this is the reason that you can counter Powers that are garnered via a Trait.

Ulik has a power:
This is a power, but it specifically says that it cannot be countered.
No one seems to be arguing that one.

The powers from a Trait and the Trait itself are synonynmous.
Traits cannot be countered. Where's the argument?

Traits state : "Traits are powers, abilities, effects..." this is stated in the plural. It could say in singular form, something like this: "The Trait is Impervious..." for example. These two examples are exactly the same, except that one is plural and general and one is singular and specific. Grammatically they are indentical.

You could reword the first and last parts to read:

I know this plays with the words, but they are grammatically identical.

The discussion is theoretical at the moment.

There's no debate about the current traits which, if I'm not mistaken, all say that the figure "can use" the power in the trait.

Theoretically, we could get a trait which says the figure "possesses" the power.

If that should happen, then that power, but still not the trait, would be able to be countered.

The argument is because the highlighted statement is in error.

In Hammer Of Thor, #54.

They are synonymous because of the grammar. When you use a Predicate Nominative following a linking verb to the subject, you can literally change the linking verb to the word "equals".

"Scott is a teacher" - Scott = teacher
"Harpua is a genius" - Harpua = Genius
"Computers are machines" - Computers = machines
"Traits are Powers, abilities..." - Traits = Powers, abilities

In the statement, the Trait is synonymous with the power it provides.

This comes from the fact that I teach English.

Not taking sides here, but proper grammar and the rules of Heroclix are not always compatible.

Excellent. Rep coming your way for some much-needed levity in this thread.

And whoever said the English language is the best form of communication.


That's it, let's start a petition to make all official rules in German. It is a much clearer language, after all.

Yet for some reason the statement that feats are not counterable and non optional is not listed in the rules book with them, because outwitting the power they depend on makes them counterable, where as traits specifically add that statement, one would think there has to be a reason for this.

And in my opinion if the characters trait says they "have" x power, that power is the purpose of the trait, that power IS the trait. Essentially all traits are a power.. Look at Chase Superman's Trait:

Superman does not take pushing damage.

Sounds kind of like a power to me.. Yet it can't be outwit.

It seems in many cases a trait is a dial long special power.
So it doesn't seem far feteched should WK screw up and say,

Optimus Prime has super strength and running shot

That either of them should be outwitable as that is the particular special power of the trait.


This is an issue because namora's trait as stated says:
Namora has the symbol.

I think just for curiosity's sake, we should make a poll with the question:

Can namora's trait that says: Namora has the symbol
Be outwit?

Yes
No

Just to see what the general consensus is.

No. You cannot ever Outwit a symbol.

What you can do here, however, is use Outwit to counter the Swim ability granted by the symbol.

^^^^^ beaten like I stole something

No, Traits cannot be outwitted. However, the Swim ability granted by the Dolphin symbol granted by the Trait can presumably be outwitted.

This is incorrect. Countering a prerequisite power does not counter the feat. The feat can no longer be used, but it is not countered.
Sure. You are unable to counter the whole chunk, yet that doesn't mean that some part of it doesn't generate something which is able to be countered.



It sounds like Willpower. It does the same thing. If it said "Superman possesses Willpower." then possession of the power would be present, and the power would be able to be countered.

If it said that, both powers would be possessed and able to be countered.