t'challa, agree with that entirely. (was roughly the point i was trying to make)

faster than AGL though? that i'm curious about.

hawkeye isnt really that big of a problem to be honest. cus by turn 4 you HAVE to stun AGLs and not chomin cus you're pretty much almost dead. and he doesnt help much if i have evens (AGL prefers evens while almost every other deck wants odds, so most the time i expect evens anyways). if you are playing chaos magic chances are i win anyways. all im really saying is AGL cant possibly lose to a normal curve deck because curve wasnt MADE to BEAT decks like agl. i mean really.. look at whats played in GA. how many curve decks can beat the deck even with flame and anarchy? i know CS couldnt. im not even saying the deck is unbeatable. but the decks that DO beat it consistently usually revolve around child lock or alot of cards from the origins sets.

and blanket reinforcement effects arnt gonna help because 1) they're usually terrible. 2) there really isnt alot of breakthrough dealt to characters most of the damage is going straight to the face. what deck is FASTER than agl? i've played against brotherhood that got turn 1-3 TNBH and still won. AGL cahracters are like bhood characters while adding 1-2 TNBHs. but its also alot more consistent. and gets more characters out. oh and they have flight which means a whole lot. and you . and recovery effects... what recovery effects are there other than pancea potion that are played? how many of them are on a good team? if your opponent is playing x-men you already win.

and for doom2099. calculate how much damage the JLA player in my game scenerio would do. now i know i wouldnt be dead before i kill them, and even if they say somehow attacked every turn im pretty sure i'd still be alive.(i could somehow be wrong cus im estimating off top of head.) not to mention cosmic conflict on xal saves a quite a bit of damage. but if decks in SA dont need to be anti agl to beat agl ill be a happy man cus then that means Inf crisis will be an amazing set and i will actually have fun playing the format.

I feel a need to speak up for Canamrock, even though I am certain he will probably post back later too...

The fact that you are assuming he is playing a 7/7 on four just implies that you are fundamentally underestimating his deck.

Your post is making the equivalent statement of saying Doom is unviable because it can't be TNB with triple The New Brotherhood. You're right it can't, but how often will you get the exact same draws you're asking for.

Your post is also ignoring things that JLA can run. Running Interference is very good at stopping your guys from attacking his protected guys. What if JLA plays the bwahaha when you stun your Fiero? How do you know JLA isn't running No Man Escapes the Manhunter? How do you know JLA isn't running Death Trap? These are all cards that JLA can easily run, and each one prevents a unique challenge against a certain aspect of your deck. Sure you can beat him down pretty low... but sometime around turn four Shayera Thal and Green Arrow stay there on the board and start staring down, and I gotta tell Green Arrow is very good against Chomin.


How about we try this situation instead:
Turn 1 - AGL swings for 2 w/ Chomin

Turn 2 - AGL swings for 4 into Connor Hawke, and you swing with Chomin and burn for 4 more. 10 damage so far.

Turn 3 - JLA plays Aquaman - just because I like using the same situation you have - and a No Man Escapes the Manhunter. You have Chomin, AGL and Xallarap. No Man targets Chomin, and Aquaman mauls Chomin. Connor comes in for some more. The subsequent decision tree from here - whether you will reinforce or not, or whether or not you will stun w/ Chomin - takes awhile to explain here, but basically you get to pick whether you want to keep Chomin, AGL, or Xallarap. There's a good chance even get to keep your Xallarap! I see about a potential 13 more damage heading in JLA's way, which is 23 damage total. This is the highest upumped total you can do, and this is assuming that you lose both Xallarap and AGL. If you choose to keep Xallarap, you will have to make sure that you use Chomin before it gets NMETMH, because you have no other way to get it stunned.

Turn 4 - I don't even want to go around this point because of the sheer number of plays there are are possible. If JLA plays Green Arrow, again that's some more brownie points. If he plays Hawkman with a metal, that's another huge wall. So what if you do play a bunch of hidden guys instead? I'm assuming you will have Xallarap, and maybe 2 AGLs? The odds are favorable for the JLA at this point.

The thing is, this is the exact same situation you posted but with the difference of NMETMH.

One card.

I doubt the validity of your statement especially when said deck has 8 cantrips from WGH/Mag7 and tutoring from Hero's Welcome and Shayera Thal. I'd put my money on the JLA deck when it comes to consistency.

I play AGL, and I can vouch for the fact that that NMEtM really is annoying. It's the reason I started running Matter Convergence.

This is the part of the conversation that I enjoy. The part where we can actually discuss back and forth how sets of circumstances can demonstrate what has happened in the past as a guideline for what can and most likely will happen in the future.

My curve avengers give me the ability to rely on higher than average defense starting on turn 3 usually, as my 3 drop is usually no less than a 7/6, though it is frequently an 8/7 ( I personally love assemble). My 4 drop as well is either a hawkeye (searched for as a 9/6) or a dr. druid ( my choice of late, and maybe searched for) as an 8/9. this means that the agl's shouldn't have too many chances to run rampant across my table.

But this isn't the deck that I'd bacnk on against AGLs. I'd have to go with my SSMK deck, which is a curve deck, but it is a hard hitting curve deck.

Most games end on turn 5 with it, and now with it made for silver age, it is way more consistent than it was before, with the inclusion of mikado and dagger and a few other tricks.

actually i said his 3 drop was a 7/7.. and his 4 drop was a 9/9.. maybe you should read it again. and matter converg kindof takes care of the NMEtMH. i mean there are multiple things u could say honestly. like.. if i hit faust and have init u lose. if u dont draw NMETMH before 4 u lose. if i draw matter converg to counter your NMETMH you lose. i mean really what natural advantage does a JLA deck have against agl? it doesnt have a single 1. apparently your way to beat agl is to hope for a NMETMH and hope i dont matter convergence. thats not exactly the best plan to have if you want to beat a certain deck.

basicially you are saying "what if JLA draws every plot it needs before turn 4, even tho they cant tutor for a plot?" i mean really 1 interference isnt gonna win you the game against agl. 1 NMETMH isnt gonna win u the game against AGL. archer isnt gonna win you the game against agl.

and what exaclty does bwhaha do against stunning fiero with chomin?

if simply playing NMETMH beat agl.. i dont think any1 would be playing it.

i mean really there are VERY few ppl that think the deck "good guys" is actually good. and every1 knows from results alone that they are wrong.

First, I apologize for misreading your post, though the same point remains: A single No Man ruins you.

In addition, JLA has more staying power then AGL. That is a very good advantage right there.

With the whole debate of you drawing Matter Convergence to counter my NMETMH... okay. But I'd rather have to rely on drawing random beats + No Man as opposed to Chomin + A-MC + Felix Faust + Xallarap.

And your way to beat JLA... is to draw the nuts? Strong plan. By the way, can you at least seethat without the nuts aka Chomin on one, your attackers get out classed by JLA on turn 4?

Re-read. Those were examples of twists JLA could potentially draw that could wreck you.

By the way NMETMN can win the game for you, and while Archer isn't going to singlehandedly win you the game, it seems like he's pretty disruptive against a deck that relies on 18+ one drops.

With all your guys hidden, you're potentially taking a lot of damage early on. You agree that your offense can burn out and then at some point you're relying on Fiero + Chomin to finish the deal. A timely Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha on when Chomin clamps Fiero has a good chance of buying the JLA one to two turns, which has a good chance of giving you enough time to finish the kill.

Not that it's neccessary to win the game.

In addtion - Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha > A-MC.

I find this particular statement hard to interpret. To be honest... I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I would recommend you to look at the average decklist around when AGL was in force. I would guess that most would run Flying Kick over NMETMH. Now though, with a stronger Anti-Matter prescence in the format, people are runing NMETMH. Look around at the recent PCQs. How many AGLs do you see top8ing? What does that mean to you?

And you know this how? Did you develop psychic powers?By the way:"And every1 knows from results alone they are wrong..." What's that suppose to mean?

i'd actually agree that GG isn't the best. not bad, but doesn't hit the top teams all too well.

as for no man's you only need no man's if you draw chomin, otherwise you don't need it. so you need chomin, then if you get chomin then they need no man's, then if you get chomin and no man's, then you need to get matter convergence. in that case they can Bwahaha.
in any case, you are the one who always has to start the sequence. if you don't hit chomin, they don't have to hit anything. if you do, then they have to. so it's in their favor. and don't forget cantrips aid their drawing. though yes, you can ring for chomin on 2.

-if you're saying Aquaman on 3 (odd, yet surprisingly good, choice), then there should be zero AGLs in your KO'ed pile for Faust to rez due to his ally ability.
-Kooey tutors for PTs (though I doubt they'd do it before turn 4).
-Embassay keeps bodies on board, causing strong board advantage (tutor-able via New Era).
-GG can go off-curve if necessary for reinforcement.
-Hypothetically (I say that cause i'm not familiar with any builds that run her) the JLA Canary on 4, can exhaust your board if they have evens.
-I'm not sure what the Bwahaha on Fiero thing was about.
-If it goes to turn 5, then (in my experience) there is a strong chance for GG to win. Their 5 drops are huge. Even if Fiero burn is enough to hit negatives, I wouldn't put it past them to put you under even further.
-you assumed chomin on 1, 2x AGL on 2, which imo is too good of a hand to assume. if it's AGL on 1, Chomin & AGL on 2 (imo very reasonable with ring), the game changes dramatically. chomin doesn't attack on 2 and the board becomes GG has their 1,2,3. their 2 is 4/4 their 3 is 6/6 (though aquaman was a good call). you got your 4/4 AGL and a 9/9 Xal. chomin doesn't attack again, and they walk into turn 4 with 3 characters. with things not looking so good for AGL.

With all that said is it advantage GG? Not really. But I think there's enough cards that are strong here to let them have a solid showing.

Bwa ha ha doesn't negate payment effects, and even if it did Chomin's power doesn't target a character.

i'd like to point out yes the examples i said were "best case" for agl but it was also basicially the same for good guys. good guys isnt gonna hit every drop every game. and i dont need xal turn 3 really. 2-3 AGL is fine. basicially the way i see it is since i mull for chomin/ring if i hit chomin on turn 1 as long as i dont like randomly play nothing on 4, they cant win. now if i have chomin on 2 that means i will prefer to play multiple AGLs on turn 3 so i can stun your board. chomin on 2 saves a little bit of damage for you and thats about it. (yes i also realize im not gonna hit every game.)

and the deck is based around chomin.. so i mull for him or a way to get him. unless you are gonna mull for NMETMH or something then chances are you arnt gonna have it if you are only gonna see 10-14 cards.

and as for AGL t8ing PCQs.. AGL is like 1 of the least played decks in the meta for 1 even tho its def 1 of the best especially if you are considering beating your opponent by attacking every turn. and honestly... are pcqs the best way to see whats the best decks in the format? it really depends on where the pcq is to see what kindof results. if its say cali, glock is gonna be played alot more and thus probly have more t8s. if it was here i know there would be agl galore and thus more t8s. i mean the last 10k for GA had 10 ppl playing the deck and all diff builds and 3 of them t8. that has to mean something.

i mean.. deranged do you really think GG has the advantage over agl? do you think agl isnt evne a threat for SA? cus it honestly seems like you think as long as your deck runs NMETMH u should be fine against agl.

So, kinda back on topic. I think that the unaffiliated characters are okay. the ones from the origins sets are good. the new wolverine is a step in the right direction for sure. i really find, though, that with my unaffiliated deck, i rarely need to team attack, and reinforcing is usually not that big a deal. with the KO effects that i run, they usually don't have the characters to cause me worry.

Stew

if you're playing 2-3 AGLs that just makes it that much harder to stun the 3 without teaming. and that makes the prospect of taking down katar hol with a Nth metal all the more difficult.

perhaps you misunderstood where this dialogue started. canamrock said agl/squad are beatable. not crappy. they won't dominate the meta, but they'll definitely be a big part of it. AGL is very good, but it's not what CS or TT used to be.

well before i sleep.. i just like to know how having 2-3 AGLS out on turn 3 doesnt stun their board?

(im tired so i dont feel like checking my last post, maybe i didnt say turn 3 my bad if i didnt)

yes if i somehow dont have a xalarap,faust,banished or emerald dawn on 4 with willworld and only thing i can play is AGLs then yes katar hol would actually be a minor problem. but the chances of that are REALLY low.

i mean hopefully im not the only 1 who thinks its a non "god draw" to play faust or xal on 4. i just dont see unless agl gets a sub par draw and jla gets all the stuff it needs how jla could ever consistently beat agl.

or maybe i just like how agl has the u cant win draws. i think the fact that if AGL hits a turn 1 chomin it becomes almost impossible for any deck that isnt combo or child lock to beat agl is what makes it good. and hitting 1st turn chomin is alot more common than hitting double brotherhood or whatever else other decks need to have nearly unbeatable draws. and no im not saying its hard to win if you dont get chomin turn 1. turn 2 is perfectly fine especially if your turn 3 involves agls and not xal.

Tigol and Bear:

For what its worth, I have tested the JLA/AGL match-up a lot (Not by choice. I have a friend who likes to bash his JLA deck against my decks) and the real determining factor is not NMEtM at all.

It's Aquaman.

Aquaman eats the AGLs in the yard, making it hard to excute the old "banish Hawkman and win on four with Faust" plan. He's also a bit on the big side. Basically, the AGL deck is extremely favored to win in any game where Aquaman does not make an appearance. If Aquaman does make an appearance, it can go either way depending on what happens on turn four and who has the init. NMEtM can help, but it really doesn't break the match-up in two. It's annoying, but Chomin isn't the big threat AGL brings to the table. It's board stunning every turn followed by Faust.

I would definitely say that AGL is favored to win against JLA. It's not an auto-win, though. JLA does have the tools to put up a decent fight and even win, but the burden is on the curve deck to draw perfectly. Even if the AGL deck does not curve out perfectly, its under-drops and alternate drops are easily good enough to stun the JLA board completely.

While obviously no deck will win every game it plays, (assuming Crisis has no impact on the Metagame) AGL is by far the best deck in the Silver Age format. A modified Squadron will be able to compete with them for speed, but AGL is much more consistant as it has redundancy in drops and Willworld. GLEElock also has a fair matchup; A standard build would fare 40% win percentage against AGL, while a modified AGL beating version would fare 60% favorability.

Im not going into specific matchups, but a curve deck with no gameplan to beat AGL will not be able to beat them 90% of the time. The only curve decks that will be able to compete with AGL are those playing Mikado and Mosha or Speedy, a Finishing Move effect to disrupt Felix Faust, and a Exhaustion/KO/Stun affect built into one of their characters along the curve. No Man Escapes the Manhunters can help, but it alone will not help the matchup.

Contrary to popular belief, it really doesnt matter too much if AGL plays Chomin on turn 1 or turn 2. He is only needed to keep a AGL around for turn 3, and Xallarap around for turn 4. After that he is only useful for burning and stunning Felix against decks with exhaustion effects. Even without Chomin though, AGL will still win if the opposing standard curve deck misses a key drop turns 2-5 or finds no disruption in its draws.

Also, BWAHAHA does not do anything against Fiero/Chomin. Fieros burn and Chomins burn do not target characters.

While AGL is neither unbeatable nor do some other decks not have favorable matchups against it, rush decks like AGL and Squad will define the Silver Age metagame much more than they defined the Golden Age metagame.