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Generic Plot Twists and Unaffiliated Characters: Did UDE get them wrong?
This is something of a new idea for me, but I feel that it is extremely relevant. Before I get fully into it, however, some background information. A review of basic concepts, if you will.
Unaffiliated characters: These characters have no affiliation, and therefore cannot be reinforced or team-attack. They are difficult to team-up, and are tricky to tutor for. Being unaffiliated does not give a character any natural bonuses.
Therefore, it can be concluded that being unaffiliated is a drawback.
Generic Plot Twists: Generic plot twists are not team-stamped (duh), and can therefore be played in any deck, with no consideration for what teams are in play. They are not inherently inferior to team-stamped effects in any way. Therefore, it can be concluded that being generic is a bonus.
Why, then, are unaffiliated characters so often sub-par? Why are some of the most powerful plot-twists in the game generic?
Look at it this way: Morlock characters receive a tremendous stat-boost in exchange for not being reinforceable, and they can still team-attack. By contrast, unaffiliated characters don't really get any bonuses to offset their built-in drawbacks.
Savage Beatdown, Total Anarchy, Have a Blast and Flame Trap are some of the most powerful plot twists of their kind. Why aren't there more powerful, team-stamped plot twists to serve as their counterpoints? Isn't it an insult to Marvel Knights that their team-stamped offensive plot twist is almost strictly inferior to beatdown? Magic players are familiar with how artifacts (which are magic's version of generics) are typically watered down because they can be used by any deck. This is how generics should be. (and before people get in my face about artifact creatures, bear in mind that every creature in magic has "loyalty" to its color of mana. Artifact creatures do not have this loyalty and so are frequently toned down in exchange for that "bonus").
There are some shining examples of how things should be in the form of Acrobatic Dodge and Spider Senses, as well as Morlock Justice and Blindsided, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Where are my team-stamped super-beatdowns? (the last statement was a bit misleading. I actually think that Beatdown, Flame Trap and a lot of the other premiere generics are too strong to be generic).
My point is this: Every drawback should be offset with a bonus. Every bonus should be offset with a drawback. This is how balance works. When you don't think of balance issues, you get something that's just wrong (see: Teen Titans).
IMHO, unaffiliated characters should have big stats and/or powerful effects, just to make up for being unaffiliated. Generic plot twists should be weak, because they have the generic "bonus". Do you agree or not? Discuss.
GENERIC PLOT TWISTS... *are* weak. But they're generic. That's their plus. Let's take some generic plot twists that see action...
Acrobatic Dodge (-3 ATK, +3 DEF/defending)
Not So Fast (Discard a card- negate 1-cost PT)
Home Surgery (Exhaust a character to recover 1 of lower cost)
Entangle (Discard a card, exhaust a character, exhaust lower)
(After the Origins sets, these Generics get a lot more watered down...)
Let's compare them to Team Stamped alternatives:
Spider-Senses (+3 DEF/defending)
Detective Work (Negate 1-cost PT- draw a card)
Rebirth (Exhaust a character- recover all adjacent of cost less)
Magnetic Force (exhaust energy, exhaust lower)
My point in the above is that being Generic generally has its drawbacks. There's a price paid in a card being generic and its that its NEVER going to be the best of its kind. Cards like Enemy of my Enemy and Teamwork aren't generic in some aspects, because they are (sort of) restrained to team-up decks. Generics AREN'T overpowered. Especially not in the sets that came after Origins.
Have a Blast- True, this is a very common card to be played in decks that don't have alternatives. If you have Willpower, however, you'll probably run Breaking Ground. Or Kreon. And there's TONS of alternatives to Have a Blast these days. Just depends on what team you're playing. As with any generics, if blowing crap up doesn't seem to be in the cards for them, then pack Have a Blast if the meta sees fit.
Savage Beatdown- The age old argument. Many teams prefer their own stamped combat pumps. Snikt!, Repulsor Ray, Earth's Mightiest, Oa, Uppercut, Bring the Pain, Crime and Punishment... not to mention the vastly superior GENERIC Mega-Blast/Flying Kick...
Total Anarchy/Flame Trap- TECH CARDS. I don't think many decks run more than 1 copy, if that. Yes, they're powerful, they're also ORIGINS.
UNAFFILIATED CHARACTERS do seem to lack a little punch. However, comparing them to the Morlocks 'unreinforceables' isn't exactly fair. Unafiliated characters CAN be reinforced in a multitude of ways. They can team attack too.
Warrior.
Mosaic World.
Burn Rubber.
Crowd Control.
Problem is, they have to WORK to get these things to happen. And often, unaffiliated charaters seem to not have enough of a "bonus" to warrant playing them. They often cost just a little too much to be worth playing. Don't get me wrong- there's really good unaffiliated characters- enough to make a deck that packs a mean wallop. But consistency is their primary issue.
Re: Generic Plot Twists and Unaffiliated Characters: Did UDE get them wrong?
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Originally posted by ukyo_rulz Savage Beatdown, Total Anarchy, Have a Blast and Flame Trap are some of the most powerful plot twists of their kind.
Before I start, I would just like to point out that the cards you referenced are all from ORIGINS. Back in the day, it was really a crapshoot what got team-stamped and what didn't. For example, I've heard that Have a Blast! was Arkham stamped until right before DOR hit the printers.
Now, on to the point.
Since Origins, the power-level of non-team-stamped effects has been taken a down swing. There are no new Beatdowns/Flame Traps being printed, because those effects have proven to be very powerful and game imbalancing. It's no coincidence that the first mention of Silver Age was followed by the phrase "without Origins."
Every game has a power-level problem in it's early days. Look at Magic. If VS had an Ancestoral Recall, it would get played in every deck. It's just something that design has to work through. Eventually they either print answers or create new formats where you can't play the "old, broken cards," as I like to refer to them. :)
Problem with saying that stuff like Flame trap & Total Anarchy should be team stamped is that you would have to make a version of them for every single team to give them an answer to rush.
The marvel knights combat pumps have a lower cost allowing them to be played earlier, for a bigger advantage. Imagine if MKKO had a +8 combat pump, my 2 drop hits your 5...
Unaffliliated characters are there for the casual players, generic plot twists are there so that any deck can take advantage of them because they are useful in most decks (imagine how boring it would be if you opened 4 packs and the rare in each of them functioned as Have a Blast but were stamped to 4 different teams.
Now let's take a moment to examine the Generics and Unaffiliateds brought to us by the last two sets of VS:
Amazo- Decent enough 8-drop, I guess...
Despero- Nice ability. Not a particularly great card, though.
Dr. Destiny- Excellent card, especially in team-ups.
Felix Faust- Excellent card in the right deck.
Kanjar Ro- Again, this guy helps unafilliateds.
Mageddon- He's a 10-drop. Whatever.
Neron- He's horrible.
Professor Ivo- Wow. Look an unaffiliated Tutor. I'd say that's a nice that they needed.
Queen of Fables- Were we complaining about Have a Blast earlier?
Rama Khan- Put Mosaic World, Murder World, Mojoverse to good use...
Starro the Conquerer - Army craziness.
T O Morrow - More army craziness.
Krakoa - Kinda bland for a 7.
Multiple Man - the potential...
Wolverine: Patch - Has some real power.
Bulletproof- Another conditional +2 DEF.
Balance of Power- Conditional -3 ATK.
Death Times Five- Has potential, I guess.
Death Trap- Not as good as Finishing Move.
Funeral For a Friend- Generic Reinforcement (eh?)
Glass Jaw- Small pump, decent effect.
Membership Drive- One of the good generics with no real comparable card.
Midnight Cravings- Nice quote. Bad effect.
Rallying Cry!- Bland generic.
Alter Density- a very conditional +2 DEF.
(all the other MXM 'generics' are limited to team ups, leaders, or mutants)
I actually agree that the generics that came after Origins are a lot weaker than before, but that still leaves us with a bevy of "overpowered origins generics" that we have to wade through. And there is still the fact that few team-stamped pumps even come to the level of Flying Kick, let alone Savage Beatdown.
Now that I think about it, is it just the pumps? Outside of No Fear (which is inferior to the team-stamped Turnabout), what team-stamped pumps do we have that are better than the generic Flying Kick and Mega-Blast anyway? Would it kill VS to have a team-stamped Flying Kick that gave +4? We have better defense buffs (senses), better KO effects (Mutant Massacre), better Team-Ups (FOE), better tutors (Signal Flare, Bat Signal), etc. But why are the playable pumps and weenie hate twists so often generic?
Also, it still leaves the question of why unaffiliated characters are sub-par more often than not. I mean, unaffiliateds are basically Apoc and Faust. That's it.
Originally posted by Altered_State Problem with saying that stuff like Flame trap & Total Anarchy should be team stamped is that you would have to make a version of them for every single team to give them an answer to rush.
The problem with that mode of thinking is that it assumes every team must have an answer to rush. This has always struck me as a strange way of looking at things. Some teams should be good against rush, and some teams shouldn't.
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Originally posted by Latuki Joe Now let's take a moment to examine the Generics and Unaffiliateds brought to us by the last two sets of VS:
I've looked at those unaffiliateds, and concluded that they are weak. Weak, weak weak. There isn't a single character in that entire list that would strike me as being too good if it was affiliated, so why bother with the drawback?
My point is that every unaffiliated character should bring something to the table that counteracts the "cannot team-attack, reinforce, and is tricky to tutor for" clause that they have built-in.
I'll concede that I may have been too quick to judge the generic twists as overpowered, but the unaffiliated characters are mostly chaff.
Originally posted by ukyo_rulz But why are the playable pumps and weenie hate twists so often generic?
Because everybody plays ATK pumps and needs Weenie Hate?
Generic cards tend to be the basic stuff that everybody uses. That way they don't have to print a Flying Kick for every new affiliation in the new set. Same goes for stuff like Total Anarchy and Political Pressure. Everyone can use them.
Teams should have access to the basic cards to help different strategies. Mostly because without good generic cards decks would become boring to build as you would have a very limited pool to work with (only the team stamped cards)
On the whole unaffiliated part, most are just lame. The few that aren't and are not 8+ don't have flight either, and not a lot have range. The optimal curve as it stands at the moment is average, except that there are so many cards you need to just enable seemingly basic stuff that its not worth it.
1) Reinforcement? 4 words: Lair of the Mastermind.
2) Weak? Arcade with Nth Metal and Mojoverse - DISGUSTING. Solomon Grundy, Patch, Ivo - all vicious. Lady Deathstrike is VERY underrated. Juggernaut and a Flying Kick is a game-breaker.
Unaffiliated has the cards - it just takes a little creativity. My unafilliated deck can compete in Golden Age with few problems save the occasional consistency issue.
Originally posted by Kergillian 1) Reinforcement? 4 words: Lair of the Mastermind.
If I'm going to play a location just to be able to do what everyone else can for free, then I should be getting mucho rewards for playing with that handicap, amirite? That's really all I'm saying.
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Originally posted by Kergillian My unafilliated deck can compete in Golden Age with few problems save the occasional consistency issue.
Interesting. Top secret or can you give a list?
As for the pumps and weenie hate needing to be generic: I actually disagree. I think that teams should be good at what they are designed to do, and bad at everything else. They shouldn't be able to just toss four Flame Traps or four HAB in there and call it a day. Players should have to team up to get effects that aren't stamped to their teams.
Originally posted by ukyo_rulz As for the pumps and weenie hate needing to be generic: I actually disagree. I think that teams should be good at what they are designed to do, and bad at everything else. They shouldn't be able to just toss four Flame Traps or four HAB in there and call it a day. Players should have to team up to get effects that aren't stamped to their teams.
So everyone should have to team-up with specific teams in order to play the cards that would allow them to be competitive on a wider scale? And this would be more effective than simply printing a generic answer to specific threats? That is the most backward thing I have ever heard.
If one team had all the weenie hate, one team had the ongoing/location destruction, and one team had the Curve hate/Ko effects all we would see is triple team-up decks with those 3 teams. They wouldn't even work that well together. Heck, they probably wouldn't have any synergy at all and they might take until turn 12 to deal the damage necessary to win, but they'd be the only decks able to pack the specific hate necessary to pull out a win.
That type of situation would drive all the underplayed deck types further underground. There would be no weenie deck, because whatever combo/control team got flame trap would eat it alive. There would be no combo/control deck, because whichever team got Have a Blast and curve aggro would tear it up. There would be no curve combat deck, because the team that got finishing move and the huge pumps could weenie rush them to death.
In the end we would have a hate meta. Without the basic cards that make every deck playable being generic, this game would suck. Sorry, that's just the way it is.