@hakkenshi

True, alot of vtols do outrange 'Mechs, but not all.

It's also unrealistic to think that any of your units are not going to be within range of something after a while. You can control that somewhat and cover your units effectively.

If you see a vtol that outranges your 'Mech, it's up to you to keep your 'Mech safe till the time to strike comes. That could be after the vtol has targeted something else and has a pog on it or if your mech has a defense that the vtol can't hit readily or if it gets too far away from the rest of your army.

One of the dumbest things I ever saw was a guy run his Arnis right up into hindering terrain behind 2 of my DF Donars. There was no way I was going to catch him easily otherwise. Arnis was toast in a few rounds. I won't push my Donars unless absolutely neccessary. I even told him I wasn't even going to try and catch him with my Donars and in another turn they would have been going separate ways.

Every game is different.

Trying to sit and come up with a foolproof stratedgy isn't gonna happen. There are always risks involved with any stratedgy.

But, I'd like to have my 'Mechs deal out more damage than usual.

But move and shoot is better than nothing I suppose...

Tank drop is range limited unless it's artillerydrop, so I'm not too worried about it. My DF Trikes will tie it up anyways so my 'Mech is safe.

Plus now we have several Mechs with 16" weapons ranges-very much a threat to vtols.

It will always come down to your battle tactics anyways no matter what units you bring in your army.

Having units skipping turns is part and parcel of the MWDA pushing system. Allowing mechs to quick move and quick shoot and not take an order token seemed a little much.

On the flip side, "action" systems ususally mean that mechs never lose order tokens. The only mechs worth playing become the good heat mechs. I want to get around this.

Playing the command SE would be almost a must. Taking out your opponents command would be an important tactical consideration. I'm starting to see a deeper game here.

I gotta say this is sounding more and more interesting to me all the time. I will have to try and playtest these rules sometime. Maybe if you could post a complete list of rules (or a link) for us mlotooleO?

mlotoole0,

I have to say your point is rather convincing: what better way to simulate ACTUAL warfare than to make taking out a command unit a priority? I'm pretty much sold.

In any case, with your system, I suppose someone could field only 'Mechs and alternate between acting all-out then using one action and venting whenever necessary. That would make it very interesting since you actually CAN keep a token on a 'Mech for a whole game and still have it function.

What's interesting too is how this actually balances out artillery, since the game is much less static. However, one NECESSITY is to make sure that firing artillery takes 2 actions. Otherwise I foresee much abuse...

@ greyholme,

I think you're missing the point. With the multiple-action system based on Solaris rules, you CAN fire twice in one round - you only take a penalty to do so. You can ALSO half-move and fire twice.

It has all the advantages of your idea and none of the disadvantages. I think it has enormous potential.

I'm with ya buddy. We made artillery and formation attacks require the standard ATTACK action. Having one artillery works pretty well to keep your opponent honest. Any more is a waste.

Wicked.

You should submit this to WK - it has MW 2.0 written all over it.

I like it, mlotoole0!

I spent some time looking at it last night and I'm going to play-test it tonight. Very well done.

Thanks. We had lots of fun with it as well.

There are a couple of loose ends that need tying up. I would appreciate any feedback.

Plus, these rules with none of the recent changes. I would recommend using the old rules for # of orders, charge damage, artillery, and breakaway.

A couple of the people I play with had some serious reservations about the system. I don't necessarily agree with them, but their concerns are no less legitimate for it. Here they are:

- First off, that the penalties for Quickshot are definitely insufficient.

- Second, the ability to move-shoot-move gives light 'Mechs too much of an advantage; basically that heavier 'Mechs can't keep up.

- Third, certain factions will obviously be able to go on longer than others, and others, like HL, SS and SH, will be severely hampered by the large amounts of heat.

- Fourth, the added considerations of M&S (effective range, evasive firing, etc.) slow down the game too much.

That's the gist of it. We haven't tried it yet, so I can't say. But I do admit that the heat concerns are justified. I'd need to know how much heat is accumulated for each action. IIRC, in Solaris moving up to your full speed did not add heat. I could be wrong, though...

I have an idea/suggestion for the excel sheet mlotoole0 created:

The Quick Shot option should not have a damage penalty. However, there should be a greater penalty to the attack. The reasoning behind this is that when weapons are fired, wether or not they were accurately aimed, they will still deal their full damage.

To balance this, I suggest a -2 to attack if the attacker Quick Moved and a -3 if the attacker full Moved. These can be increased to -3 and -4 respectively if the penalty is not enough.

Also, I was thinking that Quick Shot could only be used once per attack type (Primary and Secondary) per turn. That way we won't see high damage mechs firing only primary weapons dealing 12-18 clix of damage per turn.

Hak-

This one is debatable. I elected for the simple -1,-1 modifiers. Anything else seemed to hamper it too much. Remember, the tactic has to compete with charge in effectiveness.


This one does not bear out in playtesting. The move and shoot penalties actually favor the big mechs who have high attack and damage values. Most assault mechs are immune to quickshots from light mechs. If anything, the opposite is true. Stopping old OEJ is very, very tough.


This is true in most versions of move & shoot that apply heat to each action (see the Vangard rules). Only mechs with excellent heat dials benefit from this type of M&S. I went to great lengths to soften the heat effects and build more heat management into the action system. Remember mechs only accumulate heat when they push, run or charge, not as they perform actions.


It does add additional tactical complexity to the game. We have not noticed longer games in our little group. Overly cautious players may struggle all the extra options. Having a variety of options and tactics was one of the things I was looking for. You can't have it both ways.

Gameplay with M&S is outstanding. Thats what attacted me to the Vangard rules. These games tend to be short, violent affairs. 95% did not last the 1 hour even with 400 and 500 pt builds. I have played in a number of tournaments with these rules. The Vangard rules do overpower mechs too much (especially ones with good heat dials).

Playtest the rules and see what you think. I can email you a summary sheet if you like (I have not done a full rulebook).

mlotoole0,

You're preaching to the converted. :)
I entirely agree with you that the system seems to just plain work BETTER. The concerns I had were mostly my friends', and not mine. I must not be explaining the game well to them, because they REALLY aren't convinced. I'll try to get them to playtest it a bit with me, then we'll see, I guess.

I'd really appreciate a summary sheet if you could email it to me.


@ Verix,

I agree the Attack penalty should be higher, at least -2, but I don't know about removing the damage penalty. Less accuracy does mean less damage in the BT universe. -2/-1 seem like acceptable penalties.

Also, I thought mlotoole0 had already established that you could only Quickshot once per weapon slot? I could be wrong.

Ok. After playing some I'm even more sold on this idea. What a dynamic difference it makes to this game! I'll have to play more in order to have any seriously informed feedback, but I will.

It'd be great if you could eventually post whatever comments you have, 'cause I could use the help in convincing my friends to try it in good faith.

More specifically, though, how have you found it to work with formations? That was one fairly important concern I heard.

That was my reaction after playing a few tournaments with the Vangard rules. The games were fast and furious but never lacking in strategy and tactics. My only problem with those rules was that mechs were too good.