Now we have had much talk on the subject of mechs and the ability to move and shoot even the wizkids game designers have come out and spoken about plans for this in the interviews but my question is will this fix the major problems with the game or will it just make the hole that wizkids has dug themselves even deeper? Now lets say we give mechs the ability to move up to the printed speed value and shoot for 1 click of heat. Seams fair right? superior effective ranges on tank drops are no longer a problem for mechs nor are meat shields around arty they can just shoot over them. So how dose this become a problem? All the problems are now fixed right? wrong ... by doing this only a few mechs become playable namely bart / cynthia kelly with a now effective 24'' shot they out range all other mechs by a good margin Thus making most other mechs unplayable.
Now lets say we give mechs half move and shoot or even a set movement value like 6'' if the former is done cynthia / bart are still a problem with effective 19'' of range and on top of that mechs including the c/b combo no longer out range tank drop. In order for any potential move and shoot rules to work wizkids has to first nerf tank drop and if any thing wizkids seams to be giving tank drop more options. The mwda game is sadly going the way of the Dino's with a total rules revision in a MW 2.0 being the only hope. And if any thing this is even worse i guarantee if a MW2.0 is made 90% of older figures will be unusable. Dose this game have any hope or is it time to invest our money in a stable game with balanced rules made by competent game designers .... warhammer 40k any one...

Yeah, it's a dilly of a pickle. It's going to take a good deal of thinking to pull this one off, either way.

The thing is, they have to work something out like they did with the VTOLS, where Speed points somehow convert. Because obviously the smaller, faster 'Mechs should be better able to move-and-shoot than heavier and slower ones.

I don't think it is really a problem if mech X has bigger move and shoot range than mech Y. Just as long as they all follow the same move and shoot rules. That move printed speed and shoot for one heat is perfectly good option and would make mechs well balanced as you can still use tactics like terrain to get around your enemys mech having bigger range. Ranges are after all supposed to MEAN something.

What you also could do, is to give EVERYTHING a move+shoot, and give 'Mechs also the ability to walk or do close combat without gaining a click of heat for it. Infantry and tanks should also lose that click of damage when they're pushed, after two turns of action they still should be uncapable of doing anything during the next turn. These changes would make the game a lot faster, I think.

A move & shoot rule, much as the new charging rule, address a symptom, but not the problem.

Just as an inept doctor looks only at a cough, but ignores the pneumonia. These fixes fail to address the problem that most mechs can outrun ALL weapons.

frempath

Even with the change to charge, it's still the best weapon a Mech has. It's still going to be Arnis's opening move, and if he hits, you're still going to be in a lot worse shape than he.

If you expect Mechs to resort to their ranged weapons for a change, they're going to need to Bound (move-and-shoot).

Cynthia and Bart might come into play for a little while, but the fact is that it'd be difficult for them to dominate when they're doing a maximum of 3 damage. Plus, while there's only one special ability that hoses melee (Agility), there are at least three to hose range (Camo, Decoy, Evade). And hey, I know a few Steel Wolf Mechs who'd LOVE to take 3 damage. So what do you take in this case? The Mech with the longest bounding range? Or a Mech that says "screw you" to bounders? Maybe both?

Or maybe you just take Arnis, since he can hose both range and melee? :rolleyes:

Really? Wow. I didn't realize mechs could run at the speed of light (lasers). I didn't realize they could outrun missles. I didn't realize they could outrun copters/aircraft...

Where are you basing that information from?

Looking at the dossier for just the Vede, max speed is 65 kph.

uhm, don't know if you know physics or not, but that's really not all that fast. My car can move faster than that....

Not sure if move/shoot is the right answer, but the "pushing" concept really doesn't work in this game IMHO for vehicles/infantry and I do think most pieces need to be able to move/shoot with some kind of formula (4 speed points required for a mech (should cap the heavy mechs), 6 for vehicles, 3 or 4 for infantry?). Also, not allowing actions to be taken after being "dropped" off by transports should be implemented. Or at the best case scenario, move actions can be done, but not combat actions.

Then again, I'm still learning the game and having a blast. My recommendation, however, is make one rules overhaul and only make FAQ/corrections as needed and keep the rules for a long time. One of the things that is turning me off of heroclix is because of the constant rule changing.

Err... Thorgrin, what frempath means by "'Mechs can outrun all weapons" is that most 'Mechs can move farther than they can shoot.

In any case, if any move-and-shoot rule were to be added, there would have to be a way for lighter 'Mechs to move-shoot-move, or else they would just ping the heavier 'Mechs for very little damage, then explode on the next turn as the heavier 'Mechs retaliate.

And of course, there should be a slight penalty to hit, say -2.

no actually the rule can be put out like this, mech can only move but not run to shoot a target but due to the difficulty of hitting a target while moving the damage the mech delivered is half and rounded up so if a mech sec dmg is 5 and then half, the dmg delivered rounded up is 3. also move and shoot take 2 heat and if the mech have a token already, it take 3 heat. mechs also cannot target a target rear arc after it make a move and shoot action. the target that the mech target may free spin

Move & Shoot would be a disaster. It would completely change game as it was designed. You cannot do it now, after FOUR expansions! Some mech would have almost no benefit (Sadia and all other 5"moving mechs) and other would become real monsters (too many to mention).
And, what's most: why should now move and shoot be introduced to mechs? What'the problem??

Some 'Mechs are monsters already compared to the majority of other 'Mechs. And why would change be a disaster? Give every unit the ability to move and shoot, that would level things out in my opinion. Also no pushing damage for infantry and vehicles, but keep the third turn actionlessness for these units. Also it would be interesting if 'Mechs could for example walk and vent in one turn, and walking shouldn't be an action which gives a 'Mech heat. The same goes for close combat, by the way.

Suskis: Every strategy in the game revolves around trying to get some sort of ability to start from outside the enemy's range, move into range without response, and fire. Charge and Tank-Drop and VTOL ... if those aren't crude, boorish attempts at move-shoot, then what is?

First off, if we follow the same convention that vtols follow in using movement points for an attack, many of the expensive (pointswise) heavy mechs suddenly lose any advantage they once had in ranged attacks. So not a worthwhile fix in that respect. Say we use 6 as a the number of movement points you have to spend for a shoot or attack. Many heavy mechs simply don't have the points to spare. I'm still all for having armor work against a charge/ram/death from above (well maybe not death from above). It just makes sense. On a final note, I think the way to fix things is to adopt a concept like interupt the way it is used in the ccg magic. Fine, if its your turn, you get three orders, but I also get one reaction order. It could be specified that a reaction order could not be an attack on a target which is not engaging. Go ahead charge with Arnis, I will use my reaction move to dodge or fire on him as he charges. The interupt would take effect before the resolution of your opponents action, but it must be declared by the defender. Keep in mind, this has not been thought out by myself and I'm sure there are 1,000 reasons not to allow a rule like this, but I would partially solve the charge rule. With the new charge rules, charge would be severely diluded and I'm sure all of its proponents would cry endlessly. Funny thing is, the only people who don't see charge as a problem are those that can't win without it. (Ok that was a generalization, but to hell with one unit ruling the game).

Moving and shooting is something mechs need. VTOLs do it. Transports enable arty/tanks/infantry to do it. Mechs do it now via charge/DFA actions (move and attempt a melee attack).

I believe WK is going to need to overhaul the rules for MW at some point, as there are too many problems. Simply adding more units won't solve it, as the MHI Defense tank and SH Aesir show - VTOLs are now more of a liability to an army, given the ease they can be eliminated at 24" range.

I'm placing my money on arty/AA/infantry (infiltrating) as the next army type to be dominating play. As long as a peasent can prevent a 200+ point mech from shooting, arty will be the easiest method of eliminating units, with AA units denying opponents use of VTOLs to kill arty and peasants to tie up enemy ground units

I believe you mean vtols being able to be shot from 32" away?