I'd add a few to the list, AG:

Thug+Neanderthal
The Twins
Peacemaker + Randall
Alpha + Kerensky (For something like 6 points more, you're basically immune to charging)

One of the reasons why we don't see more pilot abilities used is because, at least for myself, a bonus to stats I'll always use is prefferable to an ability that might be situational. The pîlot abilities that are seen the most are the ones that can be used the most frequently or that are combined with the best possible stat bonuses. For example, Julz's stat bonuses are so-so but the ability is so good that, of course, she'll always be used. I didn't know that she had been banned in a european tournament (Which one?), though, that's...interesting.

I think that one problem with the pilot combos we've been given is that, so far, there hasn't been a Mech where I've had to ask myself: "Do I want to take the preffered pilot for the ability or do I want to go for the better stat bonuses?" The decision has always been obvious.

re: Peacemaker

Randall is 47 pts in PM. You can place Nicodemus Niemeyer (Swan's pilot) in PM for 46 pts, and get a +2 AV instead of Randall's +1. Sure, you lose 4" of AO, but you're more likely to tag your target.

Asbury: ye missed 'Yami' and Kenshin :p

The problem, that I see it, isn't just that added bonuses are typically better or that pilot abilities don't tend to be game-breakingly powerful. Rather, I think it's the combination of both that kills most of them. If a pilot has an ability that costs less than using a stronger pilot in that 'Mech, I often go for the ability instead. The prime example for me is Yasu Akiyama, in her Claw. If I were to put Jesus in Claw, it'd cost me 38 points, which is a cost I frequently pay with a great many other heavy 'Mechs. However, for three points less I can get Yasu, whose ability helps me when I play Claw since my Bears are Charge-happy. Sure, I lose a point of speed, but I find the tradeoff worth it. Similarly, I typically play Ana K. in Alpha, because her ability costs less than a typical ATV over the cost of Jesus, I like being Charge-resistant, and Ana K. is a decent enough pilot in and of herself.

But even great abilities, like Vaugn Sender's Over the Top, just make one wince at the real cost of using them - the loss of statistical power. I can pay thirty points and increase my Streak damage by one, which I do like and have done...or I can pay twenty-six and borrow my brother's Markus Kerensky and greatly increase my odds of those Streak shots actually hitting their target, and at greater range. I can pay six points to lose a very valuable attack point and any speed bonuses. Only reason that's even halfway palatable is the extra defense. And most of the time, I just can't do it. We won't even talk about Scott Graves and how his real preferred ride is Magister.

Anyways. That's what I feel, anyways. The cost in points, I can pay. The cost in power, I could make myself pay for a lower price. The cost in both...that's a no-no.

Good discussion. Thanks for your thoughts so far.

Thug with Vasquez and Marcus in Peacemaker - I agree, I missed those earlier. I don't respect the Twins or Yami very much - but you are both correct in that I would never expect to see any pilot other than the preferred one in those Mechs. Okay, maybe those are decent Mechs too . . . :)

I thought Anna K. in Alpha was an interesting case. I have never seen anyone put her in Alpha in a tournament game. You make a good point - she only costs a little bit more than the typical 2/2/1 pilot, and you get charge protection for those points. I wonder why so few players in my area - myself included - see fit to use her.

for what this uniques can do, agree with me or not game-wise, they still count as 'perfect matches' for each other(pilot to mech and vice-versa):

matchstick(hk-osiris) & r. mikawa(fire it up)
thumper(gs-jackalope) & l. dillon(flashfire)
diamond jack(gs-solitaire) & w. rollins(double down)
bartleby(gs-thunderfox) & m. yager(mule kick)
esperanza(rs-loki) & c. dagmar(superior tactics)
vindication(cs-marauder) & j. faber(lure)
scion(hs-eisenfaust) & j. kelswa-steiner(might of the steel fist)
nebula(cnc-wendigo) & k. nova cat(anticipate)
beast(br-violator) & c. kelly(oh, no you don't)
swan(rs-marauder) & n. neimeyer(come out to play)
requiem(gs-marauder) & s. findlay(crescendo)

now, if you'll notice, most of the pilots here have at least a +2AV, which would put them up as offensive pilots right away. the only pilots with a +1AV would be diamond jack's & nebula's because their exceptional abilities would account for them as having good pilot-mech synergy.

wouldn't you think so?

you're right on your point there cjlin576. but doesn't that mean that i can also be doing the same thing(harassing, VC3) with 'vengeance'? and more effectively at that since he is much faster.

yes, the 'zelled' unit has this option of blocking my line of fire, but for how long? what more can a blocker do when the shooter is already basing the target? or just how many line of fires can it block when facing multiple shooters/attackers?

but, yes i agree with you. that's one of the better options i would and i do take when i get 'zelled'. but one can only do this for so long before he'll be able to take out one unit, then time runs out.

"zellbrigen" can really be frustrating at times.

now, would anybody care to define this word for me? am not really a CBT fan.

matchstick(hk-osiris) & r. mikawa(fire it up)
(Low starting attack makes the pilot ability useless)

thumper(gs-jackalope) & l. dillon(flashfire)
(Too situational. I would never play Thumper)

diamond jack(gs-solitaire) & w. rollins(double down)
(Yep, perfect match)

bartleby(gs-thunderfox) & m. yager(mule kick)
(The other version of Yager is more powerful)

esperanza(rs-loki) & c. dagmar(superior tactics)
(Yep)

vindication(cs-marauder) & j. faber(lure)
(Yep)

scion(hs-eisenfaust) & j. kelswa-steiner(might of the steel fist)
(Don't recall this one)

nebula(cnc-wendigo) & k. nova cat(anticipate)
(Yep. I might even call this one competitive)

beast(br-violator) & c. kelly(oh, no you don't)
(Don't know this one either)

swan(rs-marauder) & n. neimeyer(come out to play)
(Yep)

requiem(gs-marauder) & s. findlay(crescendo)
(Very situational, but still lots of fun. Yep!)


I have a hard time separating the overall competitive value of a piece, from its pilot-to-Mech "perfection." But I think for some of these, the ability perfectly overcomes some weakness of the Mech - Swan with Neimeyer is a good example. On the other end of the spectrum, I just don't see Mikawa getting to hit very many targets when piloting Matchstick - which means the pilot ability won't be used very often.


As for zellbrigen: this is the term used by the Clans for ritual dueling between Mechs. One warrior will make a challenge, such as "I am Star Commander AsburyGrad of Clan Smoke Jaguar. I pilot the Thor with the Greek numeral Alpha. I challenge the pilot of the Vulture with the numeral 7 to a duel of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!"

Clan warriors will usually try to challenge a Mech of approximately equal strength. To turn down a challenge from a worthy opponent is a great loss of honor for that warrior. After entering a duel, the two Mechs fight it out, and their comrades refuse to participate. Larger-scale combats between Clans often devolved into a series of one-on-one duels.

During the original invasion, Clan warriors attempted to challenge Inner Sphere warriors. But since they were not familiar with zellbrigen, the challenges were often denied, or taken advantage of to put the Clan warrior at a disadvantage - an IS assault Mech challenging a Clan medium, for example.

CBT uses a set of game rules to govern challenges. Of course, actual adherence to the zellbrigen rules depends on the players and the level of roleplaying they like to do with their miniatures games.

I think ye're kinda missing the point, jester...

The sort of pilot/'Mech combos we were discussing is the sort where you do not see the 'Mech without its pilot; the reason the 'Mech is played is because of its ability. Many of yer list fit the bill to a degree, yes, but not typically because of their abilities, but rather because their own pilot is the best available pilot for them stat-wise as well. For exaple, Judith Faber in Vindication. Why the blazes would you put anyone else in that unholy beast? Jude's already got max assault stats on top of her ability, people'd put her in Vindy if she didn't HAVE an ability. Same with people like Margaret Jaeger and her Bartleby - who else would you put in it for better stats?

The debate is whether putting pilots like Raizo Mikawa, Lorccan Dillon, or Shizuka Findlay into their own 'Mechs is worth the cost of the ability, or conversely whether putting pilots like Cynthia Kelly, Rollins, or other less-than-perfect-statted pilots in their own 'Mechs to get their abilities is worth it. Typically, the answer is no.

The prime example is, I think, James Carrot. He's a great metagame piece with a lot of potential against a good number of big nasty decks, he has perfectly acceptable pilot bonuses, and yet he is never played competitively in his own 'Mech. Or ever, really. Why?

Because Scott Graves' 0/2/2 synergizes so much better with Magister's gear selection that it's stupid not to use him with the 'Mech. There is no possible way that Carrot's power outweighs Graves' raw statistical superiority, and the question under fire at the moment is why that is.

scion(hs-eisenfaust) & j. kelswa-steiner(might of the steel fist)
jasek kelswa-steiner(+2,+2,+1) - ability enables him to roll one D6 on his close combat attacks(auto HTH).

beast(br-violator) & c. kelly(oh, no you don't)
cynthia kelly(+1,+2,+1) - "when this unit is in base contact with a single opposing vehicle or mech, the vehicle or mech succeeds at break away roll results of only 5 or 6, even if it has evade or jump jets or the battlemech jump pack(auto grapple, but better since it also works against Ares).

with regards to thumper, i guess you're right about being situational on his usage. but nonetheless quite a powerful ability when it works. in addition, can be quite critical at the right instances.

as for bartleby, again you're right, the other pilot ability is more powerful , offensively, but since she has a blindsided rear arc the mule kick ability would be quite useful for that since you're sure to break away when rear arced anyway.

and lastly, since matchstick is a light mech that would mean he'll probably be fielded with a more sure hitting unit be it a heavy or an assault (a tank drop perhaps?). a light mech is not ideally a primary unit but gear him with I.T. and a n 11-12 attack roll value(which is what you usually need against a wounded heavy or assault) becomes quite tempting. what's more, once he heats up a target or several targets at that, the target will more likely be venting then giving matchstick another go at his ability. yes, he has lowish attacks and defense but at the right hands he becomes quite a cute 4 damage 'heat-locking' threat.

Scions non le pilot allows him to equip melee gear to the primary DV and when making or being targeted by a CC attack the primary becomes a melee symbol.

The le pilot is better in my oppinion, it is H2H, but you take the higher of the 2 values, if the value on the dial is higher than what you rolled you use the damage on the dial.

@laserlight

i get what you mean. but isn't the pilot meant to also compliment whatever gear or customization you'll do on the unit itself?

for example:
diamond jack(111) + w. rollins(20) + pulse(23) or APM(10) = (154) or (141)
on the other if you'll field this build just to get the same 'attack rolling probability' as w. rollins;
diamond jack(111) + j.p. millhew(21) + pulse(23) or APM(10) = (155) or (142)

almost the same points. but then again with w. rollin's ability a 12-13 attack roll almost always is a sure hit.

matchstick with I.T. is also a good example.

a 'mech's total worth mostly equates to how one builds his army i believe. and should an ability be more than any replacement we can put substitute for better stats but of more value critically to your build, then why not?

I've actually used Matchstick/Raizo a few times myself and liked what I've seen of it. Always used the extra energy heat pilot, I do not have the mind-boggling luck my brother does with non-Merciless DFA, but the thing with Matchstick and Raizo is that with IT, and that's the only gear that should ever go in that 'Mech, ye have a semi-decent chance of hitting that first shot, and even on his last click when his energy damage is down to two and his defense is lower than Flavio Rodriguez, he can ping for two heat. With a more reliable 12IT. Matchstick can do his job of inflicting extra heat on a target, or two targets, all the heck way down its dial, an ability that has pissed off several of the local peeps. That power probably wouldn't have worked nearly as well on any conventional, degrading-attack-that-Salvages Osiris; I think it's the perfect sort of ability for the Kurita paradigm.

also, given that he is kurita with ascending attack values, he makes for a good scare for glass jawed units unwilling to get hit(. . .and heated) back!

While many of the Mech/Pilot combos that were more recently added are optimal as far as stat bonuses and abilities go, let's not forget that AG originally said in his list that those were the competitive ones. Mechs like Thumper, Diamond Jack, Vindication, Requiem, etc. are not what I'd call viable in a competitive environnment.

Matchstick isn't awful but is so easy to hit that killing him in one turn before it can attack is not that far fetched. LaserLight is right though, the ability goes perfectly well with Kurita. I just think that it's too fragile to consistently get the ability off.

Oh yeah, the stats for the first Champions Action Pack were posted by Com_Raven in the General Discussion. In my opinion the ones who stand out are the Locust and the Jupiter; the former for its pilot ability, which negates things like Jack, Homing Beacon (Partially) and Streaks. The Mech itself is nothing spectacular but it's still neat.

As for the Jupiter, well, looks like we have another Streaking monster on our hands. Not to mention the pilot ability allows him to ignore a PC on a roll of 3-6 every turn, which allows for alot of interesting scenarios. First of all it means you'll never have to play Perfect Day, allowing you to use an extra PC to your advantage! Also, imagine using something like Dust Storm, and then cancelling it at the perfect moment. That way you can protect yourself from an opponent that has equally long range and then strike when the time is right. Very, very sweet.

you're totally right specter2001, some if not most, of the units you mentioned are not metagame units. but nonetheless they cannot be ignored for what they are capable of doing. they can be made of critical value depending on build, battle field set-up, scenario set-up, special rules, etc. just as one could find use for that locust you mentioned. also, IMHO these mechs are of value only when used with the proper pilot.

again, im sure you're not going to field a cute 'mech such as matchstick to just go one-on-one against a heavy or an assault, rather when paired up with a primary unit, such as another heavy, a follow-up shot from matchstick would suddenly make a difference. knowing this, i'm sure everybody will agree that you won't compromise for a position where matchstick would easily get hit first and die right away.