alrite, i have no idea how this should have worked, so i'll tell the situation, how we did it, and then afterward i'd like some info on how it SHOULD have been resolved. Psylockeslover, please illuminate:

My Morgan Le Fay was on a rooftop. below her, hidden in the bushes, was my opponent's LE Lobster who was next to the building wall. adjacent to Lobster, and in my line of sight, was my opponent's Nightcrawler (NC). Morgan rolls to Mind Control NC, and gets him. Nightcrawler proceeds to do a HSS attack on Lobster. first attack succeeds (NC's 10 on Lobster's 15, both characters on first clicks) for 1 damage. second attack is a critical hit (10 on a 16), which effectively knocks Lobster into the wall as well. so that attack we took as 1 + 1 + 1, total of 4. third attack was another critical hit, which would be 3 more, for 7.....

now, when does the rule of 3 apply? can NC not do that much damage to Lobster? please help...

thx.


ubbm

ok...so as i read it they were both on their frist click of health.

lobster had his back to the wall and nightcrawler in front of him.

NC declared option 2 which lowers NC's damage to 1
first hit successful (1)
second hit successful (1) + crit (1) + knockback into wall (1)
third hit successful (1) + crit (1) + knockback into wall (1)

that's seven minus two for his first click of impervious which is five (i'm assuming he missed his roll).

that won't kill the LE Johnson. It will put him on his last click.

As far as I know there's been no errata regarding knockback into an adjacent wall during an HSS attack thus the HSS attack won't end after the first critical like it would have if there were no wall behind him.

I think that's how it would have played out.

ok, that helps. but, i was curious if the damage stopped when it got to 4 with the rule of 3. and is there a limit to the upping of the target's defense as well, with the rule of 3?

i forgot the LE Lobster had 6 clix, you're right. i did a fourth successful attack for 1 more damage, and missed the fifth. i just want to know how the rule of 3 applies here.....


thx again

as far as the damage dealt and the rule of three. the rule of three is just maximum amount that your base damage dealt can be increased...critical damage and knockback into a wall damage don't count towards that.

if you made a fourth attack for 1 click that would have kiled him... as per the rule of three you wouldn't have been allowed to make a fifth attack having already done 4 base damage from the hss attack.

so a HSS character could effectively roll infinitely high damage if it rolled high enough each time, since the base damage is not being altered by another power? how does superstrenght and HSS play together? a heavy object would just add 2 to the total at the end?

also...if you made a 4th attack and hit that would have been 8 total - 2 for imp = 6 which would have killed him. as per the rule of three you wouldn't have been allowed to make a fifth attack having already boosted your base damage by three...base damage 1 and a total of four attacks equaling 4 damage.

no, with the rule of three you have to stop at 4 attacks...here's the most damage you can do with hss option two.

say you have a fig with his back to the wall and black adam holding a heavy object in front.

hss option 2 drops his base damage to 1

attack 1 success (1) + item (2) + crit (1) + wall (1)
attack 2 success (1) + crit (1) + wall (1)
attack 3 success (1) + crit (1) + wall (1)
attack 4 success (1) + crit (1) + wall (1)

critical damage is just considered bonus damage and does not add to the rule of three.

item and knockback damage adds to the total damage but not towards the amount the fig does.

the only rule of three factor in this scenario is the 4 hss attacks which, in effect, add three to the base damage of one.

so a really really lucky person can actually do 14 clicks of damage in this respect without coming close to braking the rule of three as far as i know.

thx a ton, appreciate it.

Hmmm.
I interpreted the new wording on HSS option 2 in the following way: You do as much damage as the number of successful hits. The total damage is subject to the rule of 3 - but it relates to the original damage stat, not 1. That is, Flash can do a maximum of 4 damage since his base damage is 1, Nightcrawler can do 5 since he has 2, and KC Supes and Shazam can do 8 since they have 5 base damage. Knockback and critical hits not included, of course...
However, shouldn't the attack automatically have ended once the first critical hit was rolled? As far as I know, the option #2 HSS attack ends automatically when the target is knocked back... But perhaps it doesn't count as knockback since Johnson didn't actually move? Clarification, anyone?

As far as I know, knockback is only applied once, at the end

The attack ends when the attacking player declares an end to the attacks or an attack misses. When the attack ends, damage dealt equals the number of successful attacks made by this character with this power action.

Now the rule of 3 stats that the damage value may not increase but it does not say you have to stop at that point. The Defence will not change beyond +3 so you can keep rolling to try and geta critical hit.

Downside is you are equally likely (or, in my case, hundreds of times more likely) to roll a 2

So it would go
Attack 1: Att vs. Def, 1 damage
Attack 2: Att vs. Def+1, 2 damage
Attack 3: Att vs. Def+2, 3 damage
Attack 4: Att vs. Def+3, 4 damage
Attack 5: Att vs. Def+3, 4 damage
Attack 6: Att vs. Def+3, 4 damage
Attack 7: Att vs. Def+3, 4 damage

So let's assume you hit all these rolls up to that point. Congratulations, you did 4 damage.

Actually I think 12 would only count once. Though I am not 100% certain on this. Because it is added on the end, like an object. Then knockback for 1 more

Nope. It says it lowers your damage value to 1. This means that NC, Flash, KC Supes: All do 1 on option 2

Critical hits or knockback USED to end the attack but no more

Well, there are a lot of issues here that I see, so lets take them one by one.

First, let's start with HSS, since this is where the whole problem started:

Under the current rules/eratta, HSS(2) replaces the attacker's Damage Value with 1. That is his new 'base value', regardless of what it was before the Action was started. Then, for each successful attack after the first, you add 1 to the base damage value. So, as has been illuminated before, the damage value after the first successful attack is 1, and 2 after the second, 3 after the third, and 4 after the fourth. Now, since you are affecting an actual damage value, you are limited by the Rule of 3, and 4 is your maximum Damage Value for this attack.

Now, lets move on to knockback:

Knockback does NOT end a HSS(2) attack. However, once the damage is applied, knockback still occurs. However, knockback occurs AFTER damage is taken.

The steps for damage is something like this:
The modified damage value becomes 'damage dealt'.
'Damage Dealt' is further modified by some powers and effects for the attacker (such as objects).
Then the modified 'Damage Dealt' is again modified by the defender's powers and effects (such as damage reducing powers).
The final result is considered 'Damage Taken', and is the actual number of clicks applied to the defender.
Then Knockback occurs.

So you can see, Knockback is not taken into effect until after the target actually takes damage from the attack itself. Also, defensive powers 'reset' for the knockback portion of the attack. In other words, it is considered a seperate source of damage. Also, you cannot be knocked back more than once by a single attack.


Now on to the crit hits:

Crit hits, in addition to causing Knockback, add 1 to the 'Damage Dealt, not the 'Damage Value' of the attacker. As such, crit hit damage is not restricted by the Rule of 3.

So in the end, we have something like this:

NC has 3 successful attacks (I assume he missed the fourth attack, as you did not mention the fourth attack), so his modified damage value is 3. Then his 2 crit hits add 2 more damage, making his modified damage dealt a 5. Them LJs Impervious kicks in, reducing that to 3 damage taken. Then the knockback occurs. If LJ still has any damage reducing powers (and I think he does), the damage from being knocked back into the wall is reduced to 0.



I hope this answers your questions....

Psylockeslover has it. =) Knockback only happens once, as HSS is considered a single attack. If it occurs at any time during the attack, the you apply it once at the end using the total damage dealt.

Just to be clear: The rule of 3 applies to Damage VALUE, not Damage DEALT, as Damage DEALT is not a combat value.
Your damage VALUE becomes 1, then one is added for each successful attack, to a maximum of 4 on your damage VALUE. Any crits are then applied for the purposes of damage DEALT. You had 2 crits, so you add two, making it 6. Then any damage reducing powers kick in. He had impervious and missed the roll, so, the damage dealt becomes 4. The attack is complete. Knockback occurs, and the damage is treated separately, so any damage reducing powers will reduce this damage as well.

This also needs a little clearing up...

Not true. You may keep attacking as long as you want to or until you miss. Damage Value is capped at 4, but if you roll umpteen times, you could get a couple critical hits to add to the Damage Dealt.