Keeping in mind we were playing a fun game with no Con artist and little in terms of "cheese". We just played what we wanted to and...

I have to say the New FF are really tough if you aren't prepared for them. Sue Storm + Force Field, essentially busts poison. My only hope was Polaris + PW + Nova. Without a PCer, she misses about half the time. Needing 7's to hit. When she misses, Johnny Storm nukes her for about 4 and she loses PW at that point, with an unprepared team. Good luck trying to hit a Johnny with 19+ESD+hindering = 22 in range.

Poison you say? He has poison too. Sue's in Stealth with Force field. I didnt have any Ultimates on my team. But anyone that could have been a problem was dealt with first by the FF team.

When it was my turn to play them, I did the same. I dealt with PWers, Poisoners first. Even with a good Nova Blast going off by Polaris, you still needed a 10 to hit Sue, you may hit everyone else but it doesnt matter because if you dont kill them outright, they'll still have 19 DV. Really frustrating.

Unbeatable? No. If we played with "tournament" level teams. It wouldnt be as much of a problem. But I dont think that the FF TA should be free.

Anyways my 2 cents.

I like the idea of Feat cards that are created to boost certain characters, and exclude others. The new FF Feat would be perfect as long as it wasn't accessable to Wildcards. Since it is, we get the same problem now that we had with R Invisigirl from Clobberin' Time.

Well, I haven't played against it yet and I don't know that the X-Men could hit a 19 defense very often. Still, the FF TA is one of the most expensive abilities in the game and the new card is really just a boosted Defenders ability. True, Sue is a better Defender than any other figure but that doesn't change what the ability does.

My issue is the same as Wyldstaar. In it's current form, the most cost efficient way to use the ability is to play a FF member (most likely Sue) and a bunch of Wildcards. The Wildcard ability is so much cheaper than FF that if you pit a pure FF against a Wildcard team with Sue, you get more bang for your buck with the Wildcards.

But Wildcards have always been poorly implemented (any ability that costs more than the WC ability should not be able to be copied), so what else is new?

I agree with you. Not talking about tournaments where you go in expecting to deal with this kinda thing. But for home fun play often using theme teams it can be a real game breaker. Know how many X-men figs have a 12 attack that can hit on even odds against a 19 DV? One, the new DoFP Wolverine. If you include Ultimate X-men and declare FF with the new TA you get a handfull of more options, but it's still gonna be an uphill fight.
Tarnish

remeber Pulse Wave ignores Team Abilities and powers, so no 19 defense and ESD for them (other than Sue's 19).

Did Mr. Fantastic use Brilliant Tactician?

yeah, who needs V mr. fantastic with brilliant tactician at 98 points total when you can use V taskmaster and BT for 95. he doesn't have SS like mr. F, but he has a 12 attack with B/C/F and that same thing human torch has going on. it is so nasty. i really like the new FF feat, because it makes them so playable. i used to pick FF teams all the time and everyone made fun of me. "why do you pick them, they suck!!" i would take a FF team with spidey and alicia masters and mary jane pogs and use them to push to ko so i could get clix of life back. now is still pick those pogs and use brilliant tactican on their damage and try to hit people. they also have 19 defenses. the tides have turned yes indeed.

cheers

I love the New FF, of course they wouldn't work well without feat cards...

In my mind they need Armor Piercing on HT, ICWO on everyone, the FF TA feat, and the LE/SR Sue Storm

Sue Storm 49 points
E Mr. Fantastic 62 points
V Human Torch 102 points
V The Thing 128 points
ICWO x4 40 points
FF TA x4 0 points
Armor Piercing 10 points

Total cost 391points....if you really want you can toss in a medic, but I have just tossed on Passenger to Mr. Fantastic for a 5 point boost. So far really fun, and the perma 19 defense makes them extremely tough.

Anyways my thought is that Feats are making theme teams (like the FF) very viable.

I am in agreement with the Wild Card silliness...it is very clear that the Wild Card TA is squarely in the middle of the TA cost spectrum. Why TAs that require TWO or MORE team members to work are among the most expensive is BAD DESIGN.

Couple this cost screwiness with the liberal Team-Changing nature of Wild Cards that have evolved (strictly thru FAQs, mind you) and the game is obviously skewed.

Anywho, I LIKE the new FF TA, since it provides an inexpensive way to get higher defense values against the tidal wave of Prob Control/Perplex/ICwO teams. Poor Con Artists now have to actually Perplex down Sue Storm's DV rather than upping a teammate's damage.

I ALSO LIKE that a simple Achilles Heel, Disbanded, evenly disrupts players on the map...so an AFF 'cheese' team doesn't get ripped apart by a fill-in-the-blank 'cheese' team.

Anywho, I look forward to AFF-ing some Brutish Wild-Card team members: Kara Zor-El, Hellboy, Rasputin, Persuader...and also some nasty short-dial guys: Taskmaster, Dr. Doombot, Braniac 5, Jinx....

Don't forget Luke Cage, sucka!

At least for "fun games" or house rules, try the new F4 TA like this...

They can share defense, but must
A: Have LoS
B: Be within the sharing pieces printed range

This is a lot more fun and requires you to actually get Sue into the battle (she has to be within 6 on the SR and have LoS to share) so she's not sitting like cheese in the corner somewhere "miraculaously" sharing her defense.

Keep in mind that LoS can be cut off in a number of ways and that this method has inherit "drawbacks" that make it different from the Defenders. Example...

You cannot draw LoS between two diagnally adjacent figures. But the Defenders does not require LoS, so if based with a teammate that is adjacent, but seperated by two diagnally adjacent opposing pieces, a Defender can still share defense, F4 could not (because they cannot draw LoS).

That's just one example, but bottom line, it makes more sense then Sue in the corner of an indoor map and on the other side of the map, in the opposite corner is Thing with a 19 Def???? Or worse, Torch with his 22 defense from range (ES/D + hindering)......<coughs...bs...coughs...>

Give this a try sometime, I think you'll find it requires a little more thinking and strategy, but it's a lot more fun (and you don't have to use a "finite" amount of potential tactics to get around it...you just play!)

Hi guys thanks for the discussion.

Mind you I really LIKE the new FF's but not in the sense for the game but more for the absolute advantage it has over other teams. It's great when my V cloak and dagger have 19 DV, not to mentioned Persuader, Pouncing Spidey...but for fun games its brutal.

And yes, I do remember PW abilities. The problem is like I mentioned. Is that even with nova blast. 4 damage does not an insta-kill to the FF. After I nova blasted and failed to hit Sue, but hit Mr. F and HT, they still had 19 DV. Mind you I was using Polaris, her 17DV is high but not unhittable. Once she's hit for 3 or more she's DONE. In the sense, that you can't rely on PW to even hit Mr. F and HT anymore. Cause they still have 19DV.

I do agree, FF is all about Feats. Without feats they are avg at best. But with the new FF TA they are terribly good. The fact that wildcards can use FF is on the verge of "borkeness".

My ultimate result from this is that PW is really the only way to go. You can't rely on Disbanded or even high AV characters. If you're facing a FF tweaked team with wildcards it's going to be really hard.

in my humble opinion, nova blast should be an automatic hit, and should stay with you, I mean, 2 CLICKS OF PUSHING DAMAGE is too much for a ONE TIME attack which you still have to roll for. For 15 points, it should be auto-hit. It will not be too abused since you take 2 push damage after each blast.

I would normally agree with not liking the FF ATA being wildcarded, but then I built a fun theme team that changed my mind. It is fitting, and fun, and just what I'd like to see the new FF fight.

Dr. Doom and the Frightfull Four

198 V Dr. Doom- the classic FF badguy
27 R Doombot
27 R Doombot
27 R Doombot
27 R Doombot
57 U Medusa- classic Frightfull Four
79 E Sandman- classic Frightfull Four
94 E Klaw with Trickshot- later Frightfull Four
63 E Taskmaster- later Frightfull Four
599

So basically Medusa uses ATA FF, and everyone but Sandman gets Doom's 18 defense. They can also chain to use Doom's 12 attack, or Taskmaster's 11. That makes for some nasty doombots. It was hard not to choose V taskmaster who gets the attack boost, but E taskmaster who gets mastermind. If Enhancement stilled worked with EE then E taskmaster is that much better.

Anyhow, it is a fun team, and I love that the Fantastic Four's greatest strength becomes the strength of their greatest enemies. I look forward to Wizard and Trapster. I am interested to see what they could bring to the table.

You can sub in Ninja Wolverine for the 12 AV as well, along with a pretty affordable 11s on V Karma and The Orphan. A had a 1,000-point home game a month ago with my Avengers-as-Defenders team (U Wasp as the centerpiece) vs. the X-Men. Karma was madly effective.