First, my post:
And then, Doc Nebula's response:

Now, I noticed how you left off some things I said that put them into better context. It _seems_ as if the reason you did that was to make me appear more unreasonable than I am. But I'm hoping you merely did it for brevity's sake.

First off, I'm aware you didn't read Young Justice so you don't know the irony, but the Teen Titans/New Teen Titans compared to Young Justice/Teen Titans dichtonomy isn't the reversal you suggest it is. It's actually quite a bit more of a repeat. The Teen Titans inexplicably turned "grim-n-gritty" when they became New, and the fun went out of the book? Coincidentally, Young Justice also became drastically less humor and "fun" based, and turned the "grim-n-gritty" up several notches when they became the Teen Titans. Johns loves some of the characters he writes, but he didn't like the YJers enough to even research them before taking over, apparently. He wanted to write what he wanted to write, and he railroaded the characters into it.

I do, in fact, enjoy things regardless of whether they're marketed to children. This is because _well-crafted_ children's entertainment, should naturally appeal to adults as well. It's not that I simply "don't get it"--but that what I've seen of Silver Age DC just wasn't well-crafted. You did, however, point me to some Silver Age things to try, and I probably will--regardless of the fact that I felt the _way_ in which you did so was quite disrespectful to me. I also wasn't trying to get into a Silver Age or Modern Age pissing contest over which was better--just saying that the late 90s to early 2000s has been _a_ highlight of the Modern Age, not even necessarily the best. The mid to late 80s were also a highlight, of course.

Nevertheless, your saying the SA was where _all_ the good ideas were strikes me as the standard "Things were so much better in my day, everything's terrible now, kids today, blah blah blah" that should be promptly ignored and forgotten by sane people. We have quotes like that on historical record going back thousands of years. So unless you think things have really been going straight downhill since the Ice Age, they should be dismissed as nothing but rose-colored glasses. You(meaning all people) just couldn't see the bad when you were younger, and as you got older you naturally don't want to objectively analyze that time period. I do it too, like everyone else--but I know I do it, so I actively try not to.

Furthermore, I explained why I would accept some explicitly SA clix per set, but not too many--because most of the important SAers continued into the MA, and are represented within the REV sets of the figure. In many cases the costumes didn't even change much, if at all. I also said that whichever the most recognizable/important look for a character is, that's the one which should be sculpted--as long as it's actually the same character. SA Superboy and MA Superboy are two different characters--but if they _were_ the same, I said yours is the sculpt we should have. I don't see how this is offensive to you, except in that it's a reasonable compromise rather than just a complete capitulation.

You also said that, re:Superboy, they should just make new characters rather than change the old ones. Well, were that the case, there would only be one Flash and one Green Lantern--and they wouldn't be your SA ones. Superman would also be merely leaping about as opposed to flying, and Batman would be gunning down crooks. You may want to think that through more carefully. The GAers came before you SA whippersnappers came on the scene, afterall.

On top of all that, I also am not disrespectful to the past--I merely see it objectively. I see the Silver Age the same way I see classic Star Trek--good ideas, usually bad execution. However, my opinion of classic Star Trek is considerably more grounded, because I've seen all the episodes. I've only read random issues here and there of the Silver Age, so I freely admit that those could possibly be not indicative of the SA as a whole--in fact, since as I said there's always more bad than good, I actually suspect that there's good hiding in there somewhere. Which is why I asked for recommendations.

So I've heard some rumors that Ambush Bug is in the next expansion. Any truth to this?













Sorry I couldn't resist
:ducks and runs out:

So, I was sorta in on the tangent, I suppose...I'm wondering when the Silver Age "officially" died and the modern age was born. For instance, the appearance of the Silver Age Flash is generally considered the beginning of the Silver Age. I ask b/c I'm 31 (and love being called a kid, btw ) and everything that got me into comics as a kid came from the '70s (mostly Batman and Flash). So was that, like, the end of the Silver Age? Did the modern age start after Crisis?

What the heck age are we in now, the Current Age? Today's comics are way different then '90s comics and certainly way different than '80s comics, so is it a new era??

It's my understanding that the Modern Age began with Giant Size X-Men #1 . And that we are still in the Modern Age, although obviously there are a number of "mini-Ages" within that. Notably, every 4-7 years there's a very noticeable change in the atmosphere and direction of comic books since the beginning of the MA. I can't speak for the existance or non-existance of such things in the SA and GAs.

When was that, '75? Hm. So I was born in the last year of the Silver Age. How depressing.

Well, I like the modern age for the most part. I like and respect Earth 2 Superman, but honestly, if he were still the current Superman and still aging, wouldn't he be way out of touch for kids today (and me too)? Wouldn't even SA Superboy be old now? There are a lot of things I don't like, but keeping characters at a relative age isn't one of them even if Batman's age doesn't make sense relatively to D Grayson's and Tim Drake's.

And I found the bratinessof Young Justice a little hard to take at first, but I really got into it. Ironically to Doc Nebula's statements, I found it had a whimsical quality that was a refreshing difference from other stuff out at the time.

I've been thinking about this whole Silver Age/Modern Age thing and I really think that they're just a reflection of the times. Granted, I haven't read much Silver Age stuff, but from what I have and from discussions I've had w/my dad (63 this month) the general attitude of kids then was just very different and I definitely feel that Modern Age comics reflect the 'tude of today's kids in a way that the Silver Age ones don't. I can just picture kids today laughing at and disliking Silver Age comics.

Eh, I think I'm lost w/o a point, so I'll just stop here and go back to work for a bit :cross-eye

You know what bugs me about comments like "don't change (insert favorite character)"?

All good drama is based on change. Since the Greeks were sitting on their mountain figuring out the Poetics, what has fueled great storytelling has been change.

Granted it can be poorly done, unjustified. But when done right, it's what makes stories great. Gives it depth and meaning.

I think as comic fans we let this stuff become to precious. Especially when we are considering characters we got to know as children. I say, let our characters grow, it doesn't take away from who they were.

IMO, one of the reasons this industry isn't gaining new readership is because we seem to be to stuck in tradition. I was thinking about what I'd do with my comics when I die the other day. I thought I'd pass them on to my future children. Then I thought, they won't be worth anything because nobody will be left who wants to buy them.

I don't want to be the last generation of comic book fans. Change is good.

for me is ONLY silver age allthe way.

JLA Satelite era, Avengers late 70's, New Teen Titans Perez, Outsiders Aparo, Super Powers/friends, X-Men Claremont etc.

I don't collect any clix or comic after Crisis.

As DC's and Marvel's respective Silver Ages began at different times, I peg them as ending at different times. I've gone into enormous detail regarding this in my article "Across the Fourth Dimension: The Evolution of the Superhero and the Superheroic Continuum", which can be found at http://www.javapadawan.com/calliope/mv38.html

Everything we are discussing here is largely subjective, and, honestly, I've let myself get drawn way too far into it. I end up simply repeating myself; I've written a great deal on these subjects already, which writing is available at http://www.javapadawan.com/calliope/martian-vision.html, if anyone wants to check it out. There are other articles available at www.angelfire.com/ny3/docnebula. Plus, I have a weblog where I occasionally gripe about comix and clix at miserableannalsoftheearth.blogspot.com.

Modern Age fans and Silver Age fans never mix well; the two eras are simply too different. You guys can enjoy what you want, but you're in for a bumpy ride; both Marvel and DC are turning back to their histories now, and probably will be for a while, simply because the stories are selling well. I imagine this will start being reflected in the characters that WizKids makes clix out of fairly soon, too.

In the meantime, I'll always have the Silver Age, and I only read what little of the Modern Age strikes me as being worth my time... very little of it. But that's my prerogative, just as thinking Geoff Johns' brilliant Hal Jordan resurrection story sucks is yours.

I think it was you who said that most comics that are being written are ####. That you really have to work to find the gems. I completely agree and think this applies to the silver age as much as the modern age. There are some fantastic sivler age stories, but in your words, "most of it isn't worth my time."

BTW I'm against character resurrection, I think for the most part it's weak writing. But, Rebirth won my over big time. I loved the explanation for Parallax and thought the whole thing was top notch.

>>I think it was you who said that most comics that are being written are ####. That you really have to work to find the gems.

No, that was Juniper Bush, or Buckleberry Ferry, or whoever it was who started this thread. I believe. I said that the stories done in the Silver Age were mostly excellent, and that is why the Silver Age is the long lost mythical age that all of us geezers still yearn for and bore all you young punks into comas maundering about. Comics really WERE better then. You just don't realize it.


>> I completely agree and think this applies to the silver age as much as the modern age.

Ah. Well, that is your subjective opinion. My subjective opinion is that your subjective opinion is a lotta hooie. But that's just me.


>>There are some fantastic sivler age stories, but in your words, "most of it isn't worth my time."

Anyone who feels that most of the Silver Age isn't worth their time can't ever ride on any bus I'm driving. Or, to be less colloquial, we simply aren't going to be able to meaningfully communicate with each other. So please enjoy your Punisher and your Cable and your WildC.A.T.s comics and I will enjoy the stuff that actually had writers who knew how to spell and that will be fine.

>>BTW I'm against character resurrection, I think for the most part it's weak writing. But, Rebirth won my over big time. I loved the explanation for Parallax and thought the whole thing was top notch.

REBIRTH was excellent. Character resurrection is an iffy thing, like all fiction. If it's written well, it's good. If it's written badly, it sucks. Johns gives good resurrection; in balance, he also gives excellent death (see BLUE BEETLE and... Uncle Sam's team... I can't remember their name right now, but they're dead... Geoff Johns giveth, and Geoff Johns taketh away, and he always writes it very well).

FREEDOM FIGHTERS, that's it. Boy, was that a cool death scene.

That pretty much sums up the problem. I mean, I hate Hal Jordan, but I at least read his book before passing judgement. Nobody that read Young Justice could hate either character.

Nobody erased Ultra Boy, he was always in the Legion, and Valor became M'Onel when he was with the Legion, so that changed very little too. H'es not in the current Legion book, but the fans all want him back soon.

Don't look at it as "modern versions of silver age characters, look at it as "new characters". The only thing Superboy borrowed from the original is the name. Big deal, the old one wasn't using it. Impulse was completely original, borrowing nothing from Wally except the speed thing, which Wally borrowed from Barry, and Barry borrowed from Jay in the first place. Robin, like Superboy, has nothing to do with Dick, beyond the name. He's a completely different character, with a completely different attitude and take on the charcter. Dick had moved on already, and frankly looked pretty stupid in the costume in his twenties, it's not like Tim pushed him aside. Wonder Girl was a completely different character than Donna Troy, no point even comparing the two. Secret and Empress had no existing counterparts in any form.

That perfectly described Johns' Teen Titans.

He loves some of the characters. He clearly is ambivalent towards many of them. For example, in Flash, he clearly loved the villains, he gave them excelent treatments, but he treated Wally like ####.

Sorry, I've read a lot of Silver Age stuff from both companies, and in my opinion, most of it was weak. The ideas were all great, but the day to day writing was hacky. The comics told more than showed what was going on, and none of the characters were very realistic at all (there's a difference between being idealistic and being unrealistically naive, idealism is hope in the FACE of reality, not merely being ignorant of it).

That's why I love the new Legion book. It has a retro style to it, with the Silver Age inspired costumes, but it's also a story about realistic characters behaving realistically. They have idealism out the wasoo, but they aren't Barbie and Ken dolls.

No, it's because, like you, it's the period that HE loves, so it's the period HE writes about. It's not because it was a better period, it's because it's a period HE liked better.

Sometimes you just have to let things go. Earth 2 Superman did a lot of great stuff. In the 40's. Eventually he went away, and new people came along. That's how life works. People accomplish things, then they retire, then they die, and then they are remembered fondly. They don't come back from the grave and do it all over again. When they make an Earth 2 Superman, he only appeals to old people. That's all fine and good for the old people, but not for the younger people. I'm not saying that only the younger people matter, but it's a good idea for Wizkids, being a company interested in profits, to aim their products at the largest possible market, and that would be the one that includes both young and old readers, namely the fairly current stuff (not all oldtimers abandoned the modern comic scene).

You read too much into it. They hired Geoff Johns because he's a damned fine writer, everything else that's happened is a consequence of that descision, not the other way around.

See, I feel the opposite. I like the explaination "Hal Jordan went crazy, killed a bunch of people, and then sacrificed his life to save the Earth". The Parallax as an ancient Fear deity (who for some reason ancient cultured named after "the angular difference in direction of a celestial body as measured from two points on the earth's orbit") thing made no sense. Plus, throughout the whole thing Kyle was shown as merely being adequate, when he's spent the last ten years proving that he is in fact the best GL there's ever been. Bring back Hal,m fine, but don't absolve him of his crimes, or shove the existing character out of the way to do it.

That's funny, I thought Rebirth did a great job of showing Kyle to be the hero he is.

Wasn't he the only one who could resist the yellow? Didn't they make a point of saying how unique he is amongst the Green Lanterns.

I love Kyle, but what draws me to the character is that a lot of the time he is overwelmed. But he fights through it. I thought Johns had a pretty good handle on that aspect of him.

All this talk of Silver Age and Modern Age is fine, but don't forget to insert the Bronze Age (the 70's.) I would say that Jack Kirby kicked off the Bronze Age with his fourth world series - New Gods, Mister Miracle, Forever People, and Jimmy Olsen. I agree that the Modern Age began with the publication of Giant-Size X-Men #1.

what??

I call silver age to the 70's I only like the 70's not the 60's.

for me the modern aga is after Crisis and after Secret Wars.