Okay, a situation came up in a game this week that I was PRETTY sure I knew the answer to, but couldn't find it in the FAQ or the Errata & Clarifications or in the basic rules.

So if someone has not only the ruling, but any actual reference, please let me know where I can find it.

So here's the situation:

Team 1 had LE Sue Storm and some Wildcards -- for this example, we'll highlight E Firestar. Sue Storm, of course, had the Alt FF Feat card.

Team 2, the opposing team, had several Perplexers on it.

The question was this -- if Firestar declares the Fantastic Four team ability, and copies Sue's 19 Defense, can Firestar's replaced DV now be Perplexed down? Or does the Perplexing occur to her original DV, and when she declares the F4 TA, does she get the 19?

I thought the general rule was "modify, then replace", which would mean that Firestar would get the 19 DV, but then I couldn't find it in the rules anywhere.

Can anyone help me out?

No, its opposite: replace then modify. So Firestar's defense can be perplexed down to an 18. This is the same reason that Human Torch with his sister has a 21 defense from range, because of the 19 and then +2 from Energy Shield/Deflection.

I am of the opposite opinion. The defense sharing happens at the time of the attack, while the Perplexing by nature happens before the attack. So basically, any Perplex is applied to Firestar's unmodifed Defense value, which is then replaced by Sue's 19...
Energy Shield/Deflection also activates at the time of the attack, that's why it's compatible with the shared Defense.

Exactly.

See, this is what's confusing. The power Defend specifically talks about timing. From the Icons PAC:

I understand this -- Gambit Perplexes Firestar's 16 Defense down to a 15. Then, right before the attack roll, Firestar declares she is using the adjacent KC Wonder Woman's 18 Defense with Wonder Woman's Defend power (for example). Then, immediately following the attack roll, Firestar's Defense goes back to the Perplexed 15.

(The "shared Defense" TAs also have this kind of wording. For example, the JSA's TA reads: "Before any attack roll, a Justice Society team member may replace its defense value with the unmodified defense value (including a replacement defense value) of any adjacent friendly Justice Society team member for the duration of the attack.")

HOWEVER, the Alt FF TA does not state anything specifically about timing. The Errata'd card just says:

So, if the timing of this is the same -- Gambit Perplexes Firestar's 16 Defense down to a 15; then, right before the attack roll, Firestar declares she is using the Alt FF TA, and is going to copy Sue Storm's 19 Defense; this replaces her Perplexed 15 Defense -- then I am just looking to see if the timing is outlined anywhere in the rules.

I suppose that if Firestar had recently declared that she was copying the Alt FF TA and had Sue Storm's 19 Defense, and Gambit Perplexed her Defense down to an 18, there isn't any timing prohibition from saying, "Okay, now I re-copy Sue Storm's unmodified 19 Defense," which would nullify the Perplexing. She'd go back to the 19 Defense.

Thoughts?

I'd say it's even more confusing if one version of Defense sharing is treated in one way and all the others in another. Let FF work the same way as Defend etc, it makes the game easier.

See, you highlighted the wrong phrase:

You replace "during the attack", but before the dice are rolled. Perplex cannot occur during another action. So the breakdown goes something like this:

1. Perplex
2. Declare the attack.
3. Apply Defend, ect.
4. Apply modifiers (ES/D, CR, Hindering Terrain Bonus)
5. Roll the dice.
6. Compare the total attack (dice roll plus AV) to the total DV (replaced DV plus modifiers like ES/D, CR, and Hindering Terrain).

Now, this is an over-simplified version, but you get the idea.


Hope this helps...

Psylockeslover --

Nope, I get that, that's exactly the example I used in my last post.

But I'm trying to figure out the timing (vs. Perplex) for the Alt FF feat.

And Quebbster, I agree, it should be the same -- keeps the game simple(r), makes sense, etc.

I'm just asking if anyone KNOWS of a written reference for this. The guys in my venue like to play correctly, and having the reference is always handy.

If the Alt FF card said something like, "AT ANY TIME, replace..." then the timing would be clearer. But it doesn't seem like it does.

Treat it the same as the other replacement powers/TAs. It as simple as that.

The RA has ruled on many occasions that any replacement value like this only functions during the attack.

Okay. So the defender will ALWAYS get the benefit of the unmodified higher defense, no matter how much Perplex the other player has.

Of course, the other player should just Perplex UP the attacker, if they want to make sure they hit... but sure, there's an advantage to the defender's defense being lower (for everyone to shoot at).

Thanks, y'all!

Yeah, the whole timing thing REALLY becomes important with things like ICWO.

There really should be eratta on the FFATA for that very reason.....