Trying to detour an ongoing debate from the Civil War thread in the Marvel forum, to this thread, so as to keep the focus on Civil War:

No in comic time-line, the JLA was dissolved for about 2 years. You have the World without a JLA storyline, Infinite Crisis, and 52. In real time, it's been nearly a year or just over. I can't recall when the last issue of Crisis of Concience was released.

Yes, because blowing up the New Warriors was a move that showed some testicular fortitude.

Because down the line Thor, Iron Man and Cap won't be on the same page, and on the Avengers, just as they were a few years ago. And I'm fairly certain that some of the mutants (like Professor X) won't be getting their abilities back. Will you be so critical when these events come to pass?

Hmmmm.......... can we examine that for a minute?

And that doesn't even cover the changes made to the DC teams- The JSA, Outsiders, and Teen Titans who were active during these events. So excuse me if I disagree with you just a bit.

Unlike the Avengers who were "Disassembled" only to be brought back together, by two of their big three? Maybe the window dressing of the word "New" alters your perspective. it didn't even take long, after Tony said he couldn't finance the team. What was it in comic time- 6 months?

You can't sit there and tell me that you don't think that Tony, Cap, and Thor won't be back together as the Avengers in the future? When they do, will you and other in your line of thinking look at Disassembled and Civil War as a cop out, as two series that were a waste, or series that accomplished nothing because everything will be returned to the status quo? What happens when Spider-man regains his annonymity, and has a secret identity? Then what will say you?

Still unified. Some of the membership has changed, especially in the leadership department (presumably, only Talia al-Ghul and The Calculator are still left). But they are still a functioning group. There are stories planned in the future from what I've read involving the Society, and their members are currently involved in stories.

You mean before Infinite Crisis, and after 52? So we're looking at a timespan of 1 1/2-2 years with DC'c three most influential heroes, the three pillars of their superhero comminuty at odds with one another.

So how is that different than having a D-lister like Nitro become the focus villain of the Civil War event?

Widespread wasn't only about the deaths, it was about the overall changes ot the DCU. It was about the way things worked, and are supposed to work now, it was about straightening out some continuity issues, it was about changing the characters' perspectives and point of views. It was a combination of things.

Isn't that what happens to all characters that aren't in their own books or part of a team/ They are put on hiatus until someone comes up with a new story that focuses on them, or uses them?

How many times has Etrigan been used, put away, given his own series, had it cancelled, and then had the cycle repeated again? What about Ghost Rider?

Yeah cause there wasn't anything published about their rift before Infinite Crisis....... The fact that they had to get away from one another, as well as superheroing to evaluate themselves is a testament that they had to deal with some personal issues as well as issues with one another to move forward.

I'm sure in due time, we'll see the Avenger's big three do something similar-or do you expect their rift to go on indefinitley?

[quote=Darth Sabre]So how is that different than having a D-lister like Nitro become the focus villain of the Civil War event?

I don't think I'd consider Nitro a "focus villain" of Civil War, merely the straw that inadvertantly broke the camel's back. So far there are no focus villians, which is the whole point of the story.

Well, everyone is wondering where he is, and Wolverine is tracking him down. He set the events in motion, and people want his head on a platter. So yeah, he really kind of is one of the antagonists of the story, and his role is key to the developments.

I'm not saying he is the villian in the story, but he is a focal point of the story, and as far as villans go, up to this point, he is the one.

I think that there are more people who want Cap's head on a platter. IMO people are using the costumed heroes as the scapegoat for the explosion.

I don't disagree with this one bit.

It can be 10 years without a JLA, but its the same old JLA who cares? The point is with the New Avengers Marvel did something different, DC is just going back to the status quo, nothing changed.

Breaking up one of their oldest and one of their best selling teams (at least according to reports/rumors/etc...) is the same as killin goff Uncle Sam and co?

Sure they will, but (and I will be very disapointed if this DOES happen) they won't be all together again at the end of Civil War. The whole point of Civil War was not to break them up and then bring them back again and claim "wooooo, look at the changes". Its comic books, they'll get back and break up and get back again sooner or later, but not within the same story, doing it that way is kinda pointless. The Tower of Bable (I believe it was that one) had Batman leave the JLA at the end, not leave and come back, there was change.

Darth Sabre: Your big list of changes is a big sleeping pill, nothing of note is in there. Robin is orphan, who cares? Dr. Light is a BIG threat now, who got beat in his first appearance after IDC. Parademon died? Who the hell was Parademon? When compared to breaking up the Flag Ship title of the company who really cares about the C and D list DC characters? All the list listers are right back where they started. If the fall out of Civil War was that Cloak and Dagger were dead you'd be all over Marvel.

Depends, my issue isn't that the same old JLA is back, its that DC hyped their booksa nd events around something that was just self-contanded, it didn't affect hte univesre at all, the JLA breakin gup and coming back is like Iceman losing his powers after House of M (which I have never said a good thing abot). After Batman left the JLA at the end of the ToB story line, he was gone for a while (if I remember right), it was a change, it was good writing. IDC thru IC was just a sitcom.

Really keeping the A-listers around huh?

They were back together before 52, someone needs to read their DC more carefully.

Nitro is the center of the Wolverine CW tie in, he hasn't shown up in Civil War since issue 1, hes been forgotten (which is kinda the point of the Wolverine story).

You mean like having a JLA with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, RT and Hal Jordan in it?

Someone needs to read their Marvel more carefully.

Right now there is no villian in Civil War, just two sides. Whos right? Who ar ethe good guys who are the bad guys? Millar is crating a story with two sides, not good v.s evil. I know this may not be as good to some as re-writing a 20 year old story, but at least its fairly new/orginal.

Rather then just "hate on" what DC did, I'll offer an alternitve that I think would have been......bolder and offered some of that change that DC promised.

First, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman don't get back together at the end of the IC. Maybe they have some kind of grudging respect and/or agree to stay out of each others way but like Wonder Woman said, the friends were killed. This at least gets rid of that "sitcom" feel.

Second, during 52, when "the big 3" are away the remaining heroes put the JLA back together without them. Maybe Hal and J'onn are the center piece's of the League (the old guard coming back) and heroes like Captain Marvel, Nightwing, Starfire, Wonder Girl, Arsenal, Mr. Terrific, Raven etc... form the new JLA. When the big 3 come back they are told they aren't wanted/needed, the JLA has moved on. They don't trust Batman anymore. Wonder Woman would bring negative attention to the league. They accetp Superman as a reserve memeber they don't feel they need him as a full memeber, they did fine without him.

Third, instead of wussing out and having minor and C-D list characters die, give us at least ONE important, meaningful death. Instead of Max Lord killing Blue Beatle it should have been Green Arrow or Nightwing (really mess with Batman). Or have Bruce die and have Grayson take over as Batman (a story line that I think would be great).

I care, and apparently so do others. Otherwise, the book wouldn't sell. Just as Cap, Iron Man, and Thor are the foudation of the Avengers; Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman fill the roles on the JLA.

The only difference is that in the DCU the big 3 are the foundation for everything. So of course they are going to go back on thr JLA-they've been on the team for the better part of 40 years. And since you don't know who the other members are going to be (other than Red Tornado and possibly Hal), you can't go around claiming that it didn't change. Even to members who haven't been on the team before or in some time (like in Green Arrow's case), it still makes for a change. Obviously, just not to your satisfaction.

Umm isn't the blowing up of the New Warriors, causing a rift between the New Avengers that's causing them to split up? Sure it's the Registartion Act that's at the center, but still, it was the action that ignited everything. Kind of like Identity Crisis. It wasn't Sue's death that started fracturing the JLA, it was the revelation that the mindwipes had taken place.

I'm sorry, I just don't see any difference in the importance of the events to their particualr stories.

No instead, there will be two Avengers team.one lead by Cap (the Mighty Avengers) and one lead by Iron man. I kind of liked it when it was referred to as West Coast Avengers.

Actually, don't presume to say what I'd be all over Marvel for, cause you don't know ####, about me. You conviently are using certain things to augment your argument , while completly ignoring others, much like you claim everyone else does. As I stated, there were more changes than just the death of some c-d listers. Just as I'm sure that Civil War will have more substance than the deaths of the New Warriors, who very little people give a #### about. There were changes on all the teams, new individuals are filling the shoes of old heroes, continuity changes, and there were some important deaths overall- Superman from Earth-2, Conner Kent, The Wizard Shazam, All of the Dr Fates, Wonder Woman from Earth-2, Cheetah, Hawkwoman, Blue Beetle all played an important role in the DCU. And most of them had people who cared about them, even the Earth-2 charcters who hadn't been seen in 20 years.

Apparently your issue is th JLA, cause that's all you keep spewing about. I think you ar quick to judge things on the surface, because it's easy for you to rant about the things on the surface. The events are not self contained, as if you look at the books, there have been residual and visible effects through out them all.

like Nitro? The Society goes beyond those two founding members.

Yeah, maybe you should. All they did was beign the reconcillation, they were "back together, as of JLoA #0.

And yet there's still mention of him being wanted in other titles. Wolverine is going after him on his own. There's still the fact that he murdered 800 people, which is why he's on the lamb.

Yeah that's a change. You just refuse to acknowledge it, because it doesn't measure up to your standards. Since Hal Jordan and red Tornado haven't been a part of the JLA in years, it's a change. not only that, it's about a change in attitude and philosphy for the way things are going to be handled by the heroes from now on.

No, not really. He killed 800 people, and they want him to pay.

That's because the villains haven't become involved yet, but from the looks of it, that changes in an issue or two. And in this case, good and evil is a point of view, depending on which side you support. But the story clearly has its antagonist, it's just from the reader's pint of view.

I see that in your usual condscending, way, you try to make a pointless jest at my expense. I never said that Civil War was bad, in fact if you weren't so dead set on flash frying anyone that didn't agree with you, looking to pin them as the other side so that you can be an jerk, you might see that I've actually enjoyed it. In fact, I've been enjoying lots of Marvel stuff as much as DC or better, for quite sometime. After one year of ###### minis, they have finally started doing things that I've really liked, and have supported. So why don't you quit being a #### and stating that I have some preferance, so that you can appear to be a smart defender of all things Marvel. You're not the only one that likes them, it's just not everyone has their head firmly planted in their backside like you do. You say you haven't seen me defend anything of Marvel's, well not only have I, but there's no need to. Not when people like you get on here, and attack everyone that isn't bowing down to the company or Bendis, making things unpleasant for everyone else who doesn't share your (and some of the the other collective's members) blind following.



They didn't though. They agreed to take some time to evaluate things. A year later, they agreed to get back together, as they had promised years before and reconcile then.

That could work. But we don't know how things are going to pan out in the beginning. Could be that they just go right into things as if nothing ever had happened. could also be that there are issues that will need to be dealt with before the League can move on.

See, I don't get his. Superboy may not have been a Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman level charcter, but he was a big enough character to have died, and have it affect things. We're seeing the effects of his death on the people who truly cared about him in 52 and the OYL stories. So his death was effective.

Who cares = theres no change, its the same old same old. So that "universe changing event" didn't live up to the hype. And in case you havn't noticed, its looking very doubtful that Cap, Ironman and Thor will be on the Avengers post Civil War (at least for a while). As for saying "it will be Superman, Wonderwoman, Batman, Red Tornado and Hal (and in a promo drawing I saw it looked like Green Arrow was there too), but the rest could be completely new" well how many more members will there be? Are we going to geta 25 member team? So by you logic if the New Avengers had Cap, Ironman, Thor, Giant man and Wasp + 2-3 others it would be completely different and univese changing?

And apparently one will be underground or oppertate in Canada etc... The AVengers and West Coast Avengers were different teams in the same way the Astonishing, Uncanny and X-Men are different teams. After CW I doubt Tony and Steve will have ANY kind of affilation to each other. THats like saying the Thunderbolts were the Avengers because Hawkeye was the leader.

But nothing to the A-listers and the "Pillars". In CW #2 the FLAGSHIP Marvel character revealed his identity to the world, DC did nothing on that scale. Theresa new Blue Beatle? Wow, now thats going to cause shockwaves. They killed Uncle Sam, a character who can't be killed (apparently)? Gee, seems a lot like having a mutant lose his powers only to get them back and say he didn't lose them, it was all in his head.....

Try reading Civil War the only book Nitro has been a part of since is Wolverine. Ironman even TOLD Wolverine to forget Nitro that he wasn't part of it anymore. By you logic IC (which all started in IDC) was all but Sue Dibny.

Which is why only Wolverine (I know, therse 1-2 others, apparently) is going after him, and Ironman told him to forget about it, it didn't matter? Is Tony trying to make it harder on himself by letting Nitro get a REALLY big head start? As for Nitro being a Dlister, that was the point, the D-listers are the ones that will make mistakes and now the A-listers are fighting over it, Nitro has been basically forgotten

Aren't I the guy who said Marvel wussed out after House of M? That hte Floating Time Line hurt the build up to Civil War, that I hated when they brought Colossus back etc...? THe only time I've seen you say DC did something that wasn't good was your artical in Critical Hit (I think it was you) about their poor women charaters. I am not a defender of everything Marvel, and I believe what started all this is you and Jacin got bent out of shape when I said IC wasn't as good as CW has been so far and didn't live up to the hype. Apparently if anyone expresses a negative opinion about something DC does you take personally.Don't throw stones.

YES they did. Clarkasks if Dianna needs a right (somethinG FRIENDS do) she says not but its good to have FRIENDS. They kissed and made up. They didn't have reconcile, they already did.

So if Patriot dying the big ending to CW you'll be satasififed?

You've never seen me say anything, because you obviously don't spend time looking, but it's there. I didn't write that article in Critical Hit. And actually, all I said was that HoM didn't deliver, because as soon as the series was over, changes started happening, and that I 've never liked Disassembled (which you have taken offense to, since the beginning). Then you kicked it into ######## mode, like you always do. But you like to praise Marvel for doing thingss that you condemn DC for doing, in true hypocrital fashion, and then like to be a jerk about it, when someone disagrees with you . If you don't like DC, that's fine. That's your right. Hell complain all you want. Defend Marvel on it's own merits, instead of tossing out the lame " Well they did this better than DC...blah, blah, blah." But don't sit there and act like an #######, and get mad when someone disagrees with you. If you can't discuss things without feeling offended, maybe you should not discuss them. You act as if I go around bashing Marvel every chance I get, which I don't. You don't need to defened Marvel every time you get a wild hair up your ###, because some one posted something you didn't agree with. And for the record, I don't attack people for expressing their opinions (negative or otherwise) about DC (or Marvel for that matter), I offer my view of things, and when they aren't ######## about it, we have a discussion. If they turn into fanboy zombies, then yeah I have a problem with them.

They have always been friends, they were just at odds over philisophical differences. Batman felt he couldn't trust anyone, Wonder Woman had crossed the line, Superman had reached a point where he was questioning himself and his purpose, and disagreed with Bruce's and Diana's actions. They never stopped being friends, they were just a odds. The little blirb at the end of IC was a reassurance that they were still friends, not that they had reconciled.

Why would Patriot's death at the end of CW influence my satisfaction one way another? I don't need an earth-shattering event that changes the course of the cosmos, all I want is a good story, from start to finish. Marvel/DC/Indy it doesn't matter, as long as it appeals and satisfies my tastes. To me the good or bad is the story.

You seem to think that I disliked the Avengers: Disassembled because it didn't move the universe. I thought it was a POS story, because it was poorly written, and the whole Wanda going out of whack, and causing everything else to go haywire didn't appeal to me. I don't give a #### if it accomplished what it set out to accomplish, the story was poorly written, IMHO. I didn't enjoy it. It's not because it was a Marvel story. It's not because it was written by Bendis, as I've read several things that I've liked from him (Ultiamte FF, Ultimate X-Men, New Avengers, Secret War). But despite telling you this repeatedly, you ignore it (which is a common thing for people that share your fervor).

Apparently we're not going to come to an agreement on this. So it's time to move on.