Someone at a venue where I play sometimes insists that if you roll a critical miss while making a Mind Control attack, you take no damage (because the PAC says the attack "does no damage" instead of "damage value becomes zero"). What sayest the masses?

"no damage" neither Crit nor Crit miss
"0 damage" can do either

The Mind Control text states that the attack deals no damage only on a successful attack, so you'd still take critical miss damage.

So...does this mean that a crit hit with Incap would deal a point?

Yep. It sure does.

Nope, Fantastic One is right; from DRRules p.23:
"No damage. An attack that deals no damage may not have the damage further modified by powers or team abilities. Attacks that deal no damage deal neither critical hit damage to the target nor critical miss damage to the attacker.
0 damage. A power that deals 0 damage may have that damage modified. It may also deal damage to the target as a result of a critical hit or to the attacker as a result of a critical miss. If the damage is not modified, no damage is dealt."

And from the DRPAC: "Mind Control (optional): [...]A successful attack deals no damage;[...]", "Incapacitate (optional): [...]its damage value becomes 0 until the action has been resolved.[...]"

So, as previously said, a crit miss with Mind Control doesn't deal the attacker 1 damage, and a crit hit with Incap' deals 1 damage to the target.

The bolded text is what I'm referring to. The circumstance of the attack dealing no damage only arises if the attack is successful. If the attack misses, the attack is no longer considered as one that deals no damage, therefore critical miss damage can be inflicted by a Mind Control attack.

You can argue that wording until you're blue in the face; however the paragraph before pretty much spelled out how the rule doesn't work like you think.

It's okay ... I thought crit miss damage was dealt too

yeah...Drunky's posting of the rules spells it out as clear as anything as it addresses the situation head on!

thanks for the quick lesson!!

wes

You're welcome .

I had two situations come up at a tournament I was attending. I think they belong in this thread.

1.
Dr. Psycho vs some brick - let's say Superman.
The mind control roll was successful, and then Superman was made to attack one of his teammates. The attack roll was a 2, so Superman critically missed. Does Superman take a click of damage for missing, or does Dr. Psycho? Dr Psycho had to take damage for mind-controlling an over 100 point figure, I know. But who takes the "MC free action" critical miss damage? (In the game, it was ruled that Psycho was controlling the attack, so he takes the critical miss damage.)

2.
Same game - Green Goblin makes a ranged Incapacitate attack. Target has no defensive powers. Goblin rolls a 12. The target takes a token and the single click of damage, right?

Which character's AV are you using? Powers (HSS, Super Strength, etc)? Range? Damge?

The answer to all of these questions is the answer to your question.

Correct. Incap is a zero damage attack, not a no damage attack. Critical hits can increase the damage of a zero damage attack.

Thanks norm. Our judge is good, but no-one's 100% all of the time.

First off, Drunky and Fantastic One are 100% correct.

Second off, from the quoted post:

1-The FIGURE doing the stuff takes all the consequences for it. Psycho is not DOING anything. Superman is. Superman takes the Crit Miss, Mystic Damage, etc etc etc. Psycho's not doing the attack, his AV is not being used, HE is not rolling the dice. The dice are being used by Superman.

2-Yup. If Goblin had Stunning Blow also (or anyone else) will also give their action token per Incap, and normal damage +critical hit damage (and knockback). Without SB you still do action token, crit hit, and knockback, where applicable based on target's def powers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the target would still be able to use any damage reducers it had (Toughness, etc...), so it might still be able to avoid 'taking' the click of critical hit damage (as the token given by an Incap attack is considered to 'take place' AFTER all other elements of the action, right?). I.e. - a critical hit with an Incap attack (that would grant a second action token) to a targeted character with Toughness would still only do ONE click of damage (due to the second token granted by Incap), as the Toughness would cancel out the critical hit damage. Am I right with this? Any help would be appreciated! Many thanks,
-jason