E.g. Lobo has a move of 8 w/transporter move/attack
If he is oriented North/South can I move 4 forward attack then four back maintaining my orientation (No swing) or do I have to swing Lobo at least Parallel before ending my movement.

L= Lobo Start/Front
B= Lobo Back End
A= Attack Position
S = SWING
O = Open S

A
B
O
O
L S
B

(So can I be in the LB orientation at the end of my movement or do I have to be at least in the LS orientation)

You can end your movement in an orientation you care to end it in (assuming you can legally occupy those spaces).

Moving a Double Based figure is a lot like moving a flying character that happens to be carrying a passenger. During the movement, you are only really concerned with counting from the one square; the other part is just a long for the ride. After the movement, you place your first part (the flying fig, in this example) in the square you counted to, then place the second part (the passenger) in any adjacent square it can legally occupy. Same thing for Double Based; the back is just along for the ride (or the front, if you start counting from the back)

So then based on your comment I could have maintained my orientation? Basically I was told I had to swing the backend in line with the Front end so that I didnot "extend past the range allowed". Given that the the old "tail whip" manuever is now verbotten.

so

LS

not

L
B

The position you label as LB is a legal final position.

The only change to the rules has been that both squares must end within the characters movement. The B square is right next to the starting square, and so is within his movement range. The new rule really only effects movement when you are moving directly away from the starting square-- then you can't squeeze an extra square out of it by tail whipping.

Something struck me as a little off, so I went back and double checked your diagram.

L= Lobo Start/Front
B= Lobo Back End
A= Attack Position
S = SWING
O = Open S

A
B
O
O
L S
B

Assuming you've got an 8 movement, like you posted, the movement would work as follows:

Which means that, under your diagram, Lobo couldn't go back to his original postion since both parts of his base must be within his movement range (page 41 of LoSH rule book). The LS position you provided would be fine, as would simply moving Lobo up one square (so his front is in the 7 position).

I apologize for my eariler answer; for some reason I read your diagram as his target was in A, which would have left him plenty of room to get back to his starting position.

FYI the term "movement range" as being used above should probably be "speed value"

Unfortunately, clear and concise wording of the rules and rulings to accurately convey GDs intents has not been WKs strong suit...


BoT

erm, the rule book says speed value. this thread is using "movement range"

Its not the terminology that I was refering to. A square occupied at the start of the movement would qualify as being 'within its speed value' but the intent is obviously as normalview describes.

Though in light of the adjacnecy thread...

For some strange reason I'm overcome by the fear that you knew I'd say that!!!


BoT

Does the speed value not determine the range in which a character can move

For what it's worth: Normalview might be right about the intent of the rules.

But the rule as written just requires, as a separate clause of the rules for double based characters, that both squares be within its speed value. As you point out, the starting position is certainly within Lobo's speed value of where he started.

The question is whether (a) you need to think of Lobo as carrying the second square around with him, so that it moves up and can't make it all the way back, or (b) you just have a separate test after the move is completed for placing the second square, that it must be within Lobo's speed value of the starting square.

Normalview is reading the rule as (a), but I had previously read the rule as (b).

I hate to be a party pooper, but what is with this discussion of 'intent'? The rule book is pretty clear (page 41):

Moving. The player moving a double-base character chooses any square adjacent to the double-base character to begin counting movement. A doublebase character must end its movement so that both ends of its base occupy one of the squares within its speed value and both ends of the base are on terrain at the same elevation, even when soaring.

'Both ends within its speed value' says to me 'both ends within its speed value' (redundant I know ). So that means, after moving forward and attacking, Lobo in that diagram can only be placed so that both his ends are (at most) within that line that I numbered 8. Anything further than that would have at least one end at 9 (which is outside his speed value).

This is reinforced by the FAQ:

Double-base Characters
Q: I’ve heard that a double-base character can gain an extra square of movement. How does this work?
A: Double-based figures do not gain an extra square of movement. As per the rulebook “A double-base character must end its movement so that both ends of its base occupy one of the squares within its speed value…”

Understanding the intent of the rule, what you said makes perfect sense, but following the letter of the rule, what you said doesn't matter in the least. This is because the term 'within its speed value' has no meaning, what-so-ever. Lobo has a speed value of 8 for the purpose of this thread, and if he moves 4 spaces using his TMA, his speed value remains 8 after the attack. When he completes the movement, his speed value is still 8. Sure, the number of squares of movement remaining changes as he moves, but that has nothing to do with his speed value and that's what is actually written in the rules. Therefore, whatever space the other end of the base winds up in, in the example, is 'within its speed value', because it must be adjacent to the other half of the base, and an adjacent square is less than 8 squares, which is his speed value in this case, so there is really no restrictions on placement based strictly on that text. Therefore, the intent of the rule and the interpretation there of is important.

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Any square that is not Red is within Lobo's 'speed value' if you start movement from the (F)ront square and any space that isn't Blue is within Lobo's 'speed value' for movement started from the (B)ack square.

Also, for anyone who might make the arguement, the RoT prevents a speed value, which is a combat value, from being modified by more than +/- 3, so if using movement reduced (a.k.a. modified) the figure's speed value, no figure could move more than 3 squares due to the RoT.

The rule would be clearer if it said:

'A double-base character must end its movement so that both ends of its base occupy squares it could legally move to during this action',

... or something to that effect. Without that, interpretation of the intent is all we have...

Not to be a party pooper or anything.


BoT

By this logic a character with a 6 movement could do the following:


CCCCCCCCCCC
CCBBBBBBBCC
CCBBBBBBBCC
CCBBBBBBBCC
CCBBBBBBBCC
CCBBBBBBBCC
CCCCCMCCCCC

M = moving character, B = blocking terrain, C = Clear terrain, C = square character wants to end its movement.

C is 'within the speed value' of M, but clearly in order for the character to move around the blocking terrain, it must move more than 6 squares (unless it is a flier or some such).

Would you seriously try to argue that since the speed value doesn't change while a character is moving, that C is a valid square for the character to end its movement?

No becasue that is obviously not the intent...


BoT