Forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but since I'm rarely on this site anymore, I may have missed this conversation previously.


I don't know if this was intentional or accidental, but it just occurred to me that all of the goings on in Marvel (and DC as well, for that matter) seems to be a strong parallel of the 'Civil War' storyline. Though the catalyst would have to be excused for sake of story, the main conflict seems to be something I still read on these threads.

On one side of the fence stands the unregistered superheroes. They represent us, the fans and readers. Things aren't perfect, but it's been pretty good for a while. We liked our status quo (Peter Parker and MJ were a good couple, Steve Rogers has always worked as Cap, Barry Allen worked better dead). Because things are changing too much and too often for sake of change, we're pretty upset. Having Steve Rogers as an unregistered hero would represent the classic spirit of comics. Many of our favorite characters are no longer "fun" anymore. They go through catastrophic changes every other week, and most of them contradict one another.

On the other side stands the registered heroes, Stark's Angels. As Stark and Reed Richards are "futurists", so are our comic writers and illustrators. They saw the old status quo as a stale, decaying, downward spiral and sought to reinvigorate what we love, so they changed things. They killed, resurrected, expanded one into fifty-two, and broke up marriages. Since they are the ones with the actual power, they were always going to win. The status quo has changed and is still changing, and at the end of their struggle lies myriad new stories that have yet to be seen in our comics. To them, as with the actual Civil War story, there was never any actual war. The unregistered side was NEVER going to win. Things were going to change whether they liked it or not. Fighting it ONLY made the inevitable transition more difficult.

Many combatants switched sides, just as many of us soon decided that the change was for the better and jumped on board. Or we saw that things were changing too much too fast, and sought to let the writers know that we don't like what they're doing to our characters. Either way, things have changed. And for good or ill, we have most certainly received some new and interesting stories. I'm just curious to see what everything looks like when the dust finally settles.

Ok....you had me until 'Barry Allen worked better dead'. i completely stopped reading after that statement.

Al Snow worked better dead, as well. I wouldn't sell the rock bottom either.

-RmL

Interesting interpretation, but honestly, I think the themes* behind Civil War are a lot more interesting than... whatever is going on with the DC rolling Crisis situation. DC is hardly alone in not letting characters stay dead. But DC does seem to be a little lost in what they want the 'status quo' to be. That being said, Marvel's status quo seems to be changing year in and year out between the Next Big Event That Will Change Everything, be it M-Day, World War Hulk, a Skrull Invasion, etc. After a while you have to ask: what's the point?

There are plenty of comics on both sides of the fence that are telling good stories. And those are the ones I happily read and collect, while I use the Interwebs to keep up on Marvel and DC's Big Confusing Yearly Events, which are just irritating, at this point.

In conclusion, go buy the Doctor 13 trade paperback, and thank me later.

* - the ideas, not the execution

You make a lot of great points... never really thought of it like that. I must, however, agree with Barry NOT working better dead. He's one of my favorite heroes of all time, my FIRST favorite as a matter of fact... I'm sooo happy he's back, even if it is just for a limited time.

See, I agree. What story do we have with Barry anymore? The Flash and the Green Lantern work as concepts because they both carry a legacy, from hero passed down to hero. But what's the point in a legacy if you just know the new guy is only holding the torch until the next set of writers bring Barry or Hal or whoever back from the dead again? Why not let the story, you know, progress? Where's the drama when you know that Martian Manhunter isn't really dead, or won't be for very long?

It's an interesting supposition, but I suspect it's just an analogy you're bringing to the story. Certainly nothing wrong with that - it's definitely something worth turning over in one's mind - but it seemed fairly clear to me that most of it was simply a comics universe reflection of post-9-11 attitudes, and questions of whether or not freedoms are coins one should be paying (giving up) for greater security.

Aside from that, it was a story that was as inevitable as the debate over gun control laws.

To the extent that it might loosely reflect some elements of fandom, one might look at it as a struggle between older school fans who hold that some ideals (e.g. heroes don't kill) are more important than winning, and those who see it purely in terms of what they believe are pragmatic choices in a game where it's necessary to rise to an opponent's level of violence/sink to his standards of decency in order to win. Even that would be a little bit of a stretch.

Still haven't read the rest of the OP. I will, but that definitely got me riled up.

You have some assertions that i simply HAVE to challenge.

How does Green Lantern work as a concept based on Legacy? Allan Scott got his powers from a magic lamp, DC retcon shoehorned into something the Guardians sent to Earth. He has NOTHING to do with Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan is never going to pass his ring down to a new generation. He's a space cop. He dies, you get a new one(s). Legacy has nothing to do with the Green Lantern Corp.

The Flash is a ball of wax best left alone when talking about Jay Garrick based on how he and Barry Allen even met. However, yes. Legacy works for the Flash from the standpoint that you had a Kid Flash with the same powers that could grow up and take over. Heroes die in the line of duty. Sure, that is not a problem so much as, Barry was much more popular than DC was led to believe...same story 25 years later give or take...people don't want to let things go. When Barry was killed off, I was a kid, but I know there are many more older fans of that version The Flash than I am.

Tacking on to the legacy thing -

I'm sure my buddy Miraclo is gonna have a cow when i say this, but...

There IS no 'legacy' of Flashes and Green Lanterns, especially. They are reboots. The only difference between these guys and the Ultimate Universe guys is these guys actually usurped the continuity of previous versions. Old School comic book fans even 10 years my senior are reading the 'Ultimate DC Universe' and have been all their lives (since 1954) reading essentially a super reboot. I find it kind of untoward to hate the Ultimate Universe on that front. The other thing is, many (myself included) thought the Ultimate Universe was going to supplant the Marvel Universe ALA DC comics in the 50's. Allan Scott - 'How the heck are WE Earth-2? We were first?! This is &#!!*(^&!'

But, we all like what we like, and we think of things the way we want them to be. In that vein, I say - You had me until 'Barry Allen worked better dead'.

I'm full of comments, it seems.

Like unmasking Spider-man! And then, erasing that immediately after Civil War, and in fact erasing his entire marriage so we can tell... the exact same Spider-man stories we've had for decades.

Was there any real fallout from World War Hulk? Will there be any lasting impact from the Skrull Invasion? Avengers Disassembled?

I sincerely hope one or both companies embraces the kind of change you're talking about. I just don't see it yet.

the theme for me is how much of your freedom you will give for have security.


FOR SURE Civil War was about the Latin people in USA.

Har! That's EXACTLY what I thought!

That is not my opinion. I was merely stating points that I have read elsewhere. I never actually state my own opinion, I'm a Libra. I'm pulling what ideas I see from both sides, without judging either way.

If you thought that was actually my opinion (since I started reading comics after COIS, I actually have no opinion at all), then YOU never actually had ME....

I understand, really I do, and I agree with much of what you're saying about the rebooted DC universe as they transitioned from Golden Age to Silver, and then started playing with Crisis, etc. Understandably, in (relatively) more recent years they've been trying to emphasize a legacy -- it's the core concept behind JSA -- but in the tradition of both having and eating one's cake it has become almost impossible to really ever say goodbye to anyone... and Marvel's at least as guilty of that as DC in that respect.

The things that burn me about the Ultimate line are that no matter how much Joe Q and pals deny it, it was built as the eventual replacement, much as when Marvel had, in the latter 90s, tried to regain eternally lost sales (because the huge speculator market that had made it possible was gone) farmed many of their long-term titles out to the Image founders. Had Heroes Reborn been a huge success, we likely would have seen more and more sucked into that.

As things stand, we now have mainstream and Ultimate "brands" of characters, which IMHO dilutes the characters and had bred a wave of fans who waft between 616 and Ultimates with little care about the distinctions, sometimes just following creative teams rather than characters. That's not how the Marvel of the 60's, 70's and into the '80s built its impressively loyal fan base. There has to at least be the strong illusion that the stories matter, and that means attention to a continuity.

I'm digressing. (And I'm also running out of discretionary time on this pre-holiday workday push.)

Anyway, I look at Ultimates and I see warped, "updated" versions of heroes and villains I have an affection for, I'm aware that on a very real level they're intended to be replacements (or templates for change, as I suspect will become more the case as the big screen blends of 616 and Ultimates begin to dictate selective revisions for the comics) and I can't help resenting them and resisting them. I want nothing to do with them.

Though being it appears the "Civil War" was strongly orchestrated by Skrull manipulations, based on your analogy would that mean the writers are actually sending out the equivalent of, "Help! I'm a prisoner in a Skrull Fortune Cookie Factory!"

Though we already knew Joe Q. was a Skrull so, yeah, they're wasting their breath..er, paper.

I like the Ultimate Universe (before Ultimates 3) and I like both Wally and Barry, although I never could get into Alan Scott.

Wait... were we talking about Civil War?

Oh yeah... we were. The great thing about the concepts behind Civil War is that they are fairly generic and universal. Cop vs Vigilante. Old Guard vs. New Guard. Tradition vs. Modernization. It's all there. To think that Civil War was *about* the relationships between fans and creators would be erroneous. To be able to draw a *parallel* between them... well, I'll give you that inso far as it lies within the themes listed above.