This doesn't have to be in the DC forum, I suppose.

In any event, I found this comment very interesting, and it made me want to contune the discussion further, without sidetracking the thread in which it was posted.

What's the truthiness of that statement? Do you feel mainstream, modern comics are on par with Watchmen in terms of level of violence?

Note, when I say mainstream, I'm talking any issue you might find on a magazine rack at a bookstore, supermarket or pharmacy.

Attempted rape by one superhero on another? Without any mind control involved? Thats still . . . edgy to say the least. Heroes killing heroes without any mind control involved? That's just plain too unpleasant for a standard ongoing series to have to deal with. I hope. I have to admit that I mostly read/collect Marvel comics from '61-'91 so I may be out of touch.

Dr. Light and Sue Dibny, anybody?

without writing an essay about it, i'd say yes. rape scene aside, the whole rorschach origin chapter is as mind numbingly brutal as anything i've ever read in comics. even if its not darker, it definitely raised the bar. by a lot. ugh. i could write an essay.

Thats still only once, and people are still royally pissed at Meltzer for it.

Moore has often lamented that the grim and violent aspects of the book was more picked up on and emulated than the innovations they were trying to do with the art form (This was the huge failing of the movie too).

If you want "mainstream" confirmation of this, look at any of the recent "Event" books that tie entire lines together. IC, for instance, has Black Adam put his hand through Psycho Pirates head, on panel, with heroes looking on. The harshest retribution he gets is a "What that necessary?" from Power Girl. For Murder.

I'm not a DC guy but even I know he's not a hero. And isn't she more like an innocent bystander? My point was protagonist vs protagonist both in the attempted rape scene as well as in the final overall plot. They may have made Dr. Light commit an actually rape but I propose that its 'darker' when it doesn't come from a 'villain'.

I don't want to get too spoiler-y but Bendis alone has pushed the mainstream envelope towards Watchmen levels.

Sentry anyone? (+Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine (not a kill, but still)).
The Hood recording a Tigra beatdown.

et cetera...

He's also not a hero, or at least doesn't claim to be.

I can't think of any book that has a hero:

Murder journalists to bury a news story,
Rape another hero,
Kill the mother of their unborn child,
Execute a teammate to keep them from going public with allegations of wrongdoing by another hero.


But then I don't read much anymore. I do remember some edgy Authority storylines, but nothing like this.

I suppose The Walking Dead doesn't qualify, then, since I highly doubt you'll find issues in a supermarket or pharmacy.

It's so tough to address that question in today's environment. That book hit the comics market so differently in its initial release than it would today. Even comparing it to today's work isn't an easy task.
Plus, I agree with rouge2 regarding Moore's comments. The impact was much more on the artistic side than the "gritty" aspect of the storyline. I tend to view today's writers and artists as using the dark aspect of the storyline without having any of the better storyline and artistic aspects that Watchmen had. So is it darker than most? Probably not. Certainly you can find examples of darker stuff nowadays, but I would doubt that most of the work being produced now is darker than Watchmen.

I'm still going to say that Watchmen is darker than all the mainstream Marvel and DC comics out today. Except maybe when Bullseye did things in Thunderbolts. He creeped me out.

I'd say it depends on what you're reading but in general there are comics these days that are aiming for the kind of shock treatment that Watchmen has. DC stuff in particular deals with a lot of moral questions that Marvel just won't touch. Conversely Marvel seems happy to let Bendis brutally murder any characters he sees fit.

The crux of the argument is in one small part of this quote.

By much, I take it to mean a majority of comics which happen to be the mainstream titles. Yes there is and has been some graphic titles available but most have fallen under another genre outside of capes and tights.

The trouble when something innovative raises the bar to such high levels, in multiple categories, the new stuff tries to out do it. If you could read Watchmen first, and then the work since then, you would see the influence as obvious, but also as being not quite as full as the original. Watchmen, at least as I see it, took the violence to a completely new level in most any media at the time; but it also holds an intellectual and emotional depth that makes it a work of art; far beyond mere shock value.

Then come the dark heroes in the 90's, trying to emulate the shock value of previous works (because shock and awe sells books), but lacking meaning, and trying to bolster it with lavish artwork and copious splash pages with improbably posed characters (which, lets face it, also sells books). Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the artwork for what it is, but no fancy pictures will add the depth to a story that something like Watchmen or Squadron Supreme has.