Can you use the Outsiders TA on Darkseid after perplexing his damage value up (let's say by +2), then activate his SP to reduce his damage by 2 to make the damage penetrating, but ignore the -2 to damage because of Outsiders?

Or does Outsiders remove any previous modifiers as well, so his damage falls back down?

Really just any explanation on how Outsiders works with Darkseid's SP would be grand.

I personally would assume the outsiders team ability would work on all adjustments.

Outsiders has to be done at the beginning of your turn, like poison and leadership, so you wouldn't get to perplex his damage. However, it would also let you ignore the -2 anyway since that is a modified value.

Thanks! I assume this would also not force you to take the range hit on the pseudo-trick shot ability?

Hmm. 12 square 4 damage penetrating damage that shoots through other figures.. I think Darkseid might have to hire R Katana.

but isnt perplex a free action? so cant you just have a perplex character in range at the start of your turn, perplex as a free action, then do outsiders? i am going off the fact that a free action can be done at anytime like outwitting toughness before poison hits.

Free actions can't necessarily be done any time; it totally depends on the wording of the particular power/feat/game effect/etc that allows the free action.

Outwit, as an example, says "during your turn". The beginning of your turn is during your turn, which is why you can use Outwit before Poison, if you like. Perplex reads the same as Outwit (timing-wise, at least), so it too can be used during the beginning of the turn.


But that still doesn't mean squat for Outsiders. Outsiders prevents the combat values of the character targetted from being modified. Period. Perplex is a modifier, so that would be a wasted use of Perplex if used on an Outsider-ed character.

A few things to point out:

1. It is not because Perplex is a free action that allows you use it at the beginning of the turn. It is because it says "Once during your turn" that allows you use it once at any point during your turn, including the beginning of the turn. Nanobots is a free action that can't be used at the beginning of the turn and ICwO is a power action that can be used at the beginning of the turn.

2. Outsiders specifically states that stats can't be modified, which includes all previous modifications. The only modifications that currently are not affected are those given by Abilities and Feats, but that will change.

3. (And this is directed to DarthPezley) Outsiders does not affect replacement values. Darkseid's range would still be halved because it is not being modified.

And terrain. And BFCs. And event dials. And on and on.

Currently, the only thing Outsiders does effect are powers and TAs

Ah, true. I would have figured that out myself when I actually double-checked the wording on the SP.

So as it stands, he can be Outsidered and then blast as penetrating for his regular DaV. Correct?

EDIT: Man, this seems really mean.

my n00b is showing =[

duh!!! its 7:30 in the morning here... i'm not awake yet

Yes, it works fine.

But Outsiders is a fairly expensive TA. Not that you can't build an effective team around it, there is always Rookie Katana, but it isn't going to be a simple thing, either.

I just saw that thread on the main page... Don't worry, I think you're safe

I always played it as If you give someone any action, even a free action, it's not the beginning of your turn. Good to know.

If that were true, then you'd have to choose between Poison and Leadership as both are free actions that can only occur at the beginning of your turn.


Instead, you can do as many actions during the begining of turn as you wish, provided that they either come with the "during the beginning of your turn" or "anytime during your turn" (or something similar) descriptor.