I've never been too fond of the way Keywords and Theme Team bonus were handled. It doesn't seem like to much game design was put into the thought process when WizKid's put this great idea into effect.

I'll lay out why I don't think the keywords and theme team bonus are handled well in the game, and how I would do it.

What I don't like:

1) Generic Keywords - WizKids made the comments back in the day that was to inspire comic-accurate theme teams. But with Generic Keywords, all it did was reward those for playing the same old cheese teams. Now they get a bonus for it. So much for rewarding players for playing comic accurate teams.

2) 1st Player roll bonus. There was noting wrong with the way for 1st player and map choice was done before the inception of keywords. If it isn't broke why fix it? Not only that... how does a theme team, logically speaking, dictate the place of a battle? It doesn't make any sense.

3) Theme Team Probability Roll. This is just as lame. Why take a standard power and dumb it down and give re-rolls? This weakens the Probability Control power and characters that possess it. Again, no comic accurate reason to really give this perk.

4) One man theme teams? Stupid. You should have at least 3 characters on your force to qualify as a team. Anything less is solo or duo teams.. so no bonus.

How I would have handled Theme Team bonuses:

A) There would be no Generic Keywords. You shouldn't be rewarded the same way for playing a Martial Artist or Scientist team as you would Avengers or Invaders.

B) Theme Team Bonus: For every three characters on a theme team, you gain one extra available actions per turn; i.e. In a 400 Point game, you have 6 theme team figures, so you gain 2 extra actions. So, you would have 6 actions per turn... but you lose these actions as you lose figures. If you lose 1 character, you only have 5 figs now, so you only get one extra action per turn now... since you need 3 figures to gain an extra action.

Why would I do it this way? This is an actual comic-accurate way of portraying how a team work together. They communicate, working well as a team, and are able to play off each others strengths and making up for each others weakness.

If I was the game designer, this is how it would be. Logical, yet simple.

Only thing I never liked was the ignoring BFCs honestly :-/ makes them completly useless unless you know no one is using a theme team

Just to show it ...

... good post VGA. Clear, concise, and discusses why you think things are negative without resorting to ad hominum abuse. Well done.

I agree that the Theme team bonus really didn't make the team feel more like a team. I would like to see more options to make the teams you build have more synergy. Almost give them a TA as such as a bonus such as if you are running a theme team each character could gain say charge if adjacent to a friendly character, or free breakaway rolls. Maybe limit the number of time you can use these abilities like the PC is limited. The other issue I have is some of the keywords can never be run as a theme team. Granted most of those keywords are generic but you get my point.

Damn right, I'm sick of Callitrichidae and Cheirogaleidae coming here and slinging insults. They don't call us the 'Great' Apes for nothing, am I right?

It's quite hard for me to chime in because I'm quite anti-generic keyword but okay, take away those generic keywords and then all of a sudden we have TOO MANY keyword-less figures.

I'm not sure how I feel about THAT...I'd like some keywords than none at all.

That said, with generic keywords, I tend to try to make a sub-theme within the generic theme.

Like if I go with Scientist, I usually try and make it all-good-guys only or with one of 'em being kidnapped by a bunch of evil scientists and forced to do their biddings...and even then, I'm still usually universe-specific.

I thought you believe in "playing to win" and thus didn't believe that cheese existed?

Generic keywords are a double edged sword: they allow for abusive Mystical, etc. teams, but they also let me play my Shadowland Daredevil with Elektra and a bunch of Hand Ninjas. The power gamers are always going to power game, why not let the non-power gamers get some benefits too?


How can I punch Batman but not shoot him when he is hiding in the bushes next to me? A lot of things in Heroclix don't make sense logically, it's just one of those rules.

Does the CSA TA weaken the PC power? You mention below in your suggested fixes that theme team bonuses should represent teamwork and TT PC is definitely one of those teamwork things. Think of it this way: A teammate could yell: "Watch Out!" or "Aim higher!" all which could represent a PC roll.

You've mentioned this before and I agree it's a loophole that could be tightened up. But the only team it gives a disadvantage to is a one man team that doesn't have a keyword.[/quote]

I think generic keywords need to be tweaked in some way, but do you think that I shouldn't get a bonus for playing my Shadowland DD team above?

This one is good brainstorming VGA, but can you imagine how ridiculous a swarm team would be? A HYDRA team would absolutely destroy teams using this rule, especially in Golden Age where things like Inspiring Command and Legendary Day can be used.

I agree with your points, especially generic keywords. However what I would like to see as a Theme Team Bonus (Non-Generic of course) is that it Supercedes Retirement. I have no problem with people fielding Pyro and Destiny in Modern, as long as it is on a Brotherhood team. This would also eliminate the problem of Teams being finished long after other members are already retired.

Cheers,
Jon Id Schultz

ok, i havent been posting alot lately, did they change theme teams?

i've never seen 1 man themes, in 300 points you needed 3 for generic, 2 for nongeneric. if any of this was changed i was unaware.

on topic, you made good points, but i dont feel like im informed enough to respond one way or another at this point

True for the game and the rest of life too; be it slashing keywords or making people jump through hoops to buy allergy meds or get on a plane. I'm not a fan of punishing everyone just to try and nail the bad eggs (who are going to find a loophole or dodge whatever you do.

I think any abused aspects of the game should be treated with triage rather than amputation.

I think you should get some kind of geek medal of valor.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to d_knight7 again.

Some valid points you bring up, some less than valid. I agree that generic keyword don't really promote the thematic feel.

The bonuses for actual team-themes (so actual teams, not keywords like Gotham City or Asgardian) are actually fine I think. A team knows each other, is better prepared. So it make sense so they have an advantage on the location (translating in map-choice). And the reroll is as good as a bonus as any. See it as maybe your team member knows you in and out and gives you that advise that makes the attack stick in the end.

Point 4 is a bit moot and would only really come in play in 200 or 100 point games. I think there was a rule like that with the old rules, but I'm not too bothered they did away with it. With only one figure on a 100 point team, the only bonus you would get is a +1 on the map roll anyway, so.

Also, I'm not in favor of the adding actions bonus. It doesn't work for me with the JLA or Avengers, and I don't think it would work for me with theme teams. With the current average higher point cost of figures, additional actions aren't really necessary unless maybe you're running a leader and generics team.

I agree with you about everything but the PC rerolls. I think, abstracted, this does a VERY GOOD job of showing a team working together to produce better results. In fact, if I were running the show:

a) I'd eliminate a bonus for generic keywords. Leave them for keying off powers and feats, but they shouldn't give a keyword theme team bonus.

b) Eliminate the bonuses EXCEPT for the theme PC.

c) Take the keywords online, so they can be expanded (and even corrected) when warranted (like when there is a new team added to the comics - Dark Avengers, Dark X-men, new Guardians of the Galaxy - we shouldn't have to wait for new versions of figures we already have JUST to play these teams). Yes, this makes them a bit more difficult, and I wouldn't change a figure's generic keywords, but the specific ones should be more flexible. Use P&P and provide electronic downloads of updated character cards.

I'm not really in favor of the extra actions idea, as (aside from real swarm teams, where I think it'd be broken) I don't think it provides much incentive for folks who aren't "naturally inclined to comic-thematic play".

I assumed he meant multiples of the same character. Like 4 OOTS Batmen for a 300 pt "theme team". Could be wrong though.

That was a pretty nice critique! Bully!