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My friend and I got into a debate regarding the power Charge and I was hoping some people could weigh in. This refers specifically to charging into hindering terrain.
He argued that because hindering forces a character to end their movement upon entering it, that the attack portion of charge cannot be made because the player didn't choose to end their movement, they were forced to.
I argued that, while movement is certainly forced to end upon entering hindering terrain, if an opposing character is adjacent to the charging character after being forced to end their movement, they would still then be able to make an attack on that adjacent opponent.
Anybody able to provide a final word on this particular issue?
At the end of movement a character can make an attack as a free action. Nothing in the power says they have to choose to stop rather then being forced.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
With Charge and Running Shot the attack comes after the movement ends: it doesn't matter if it ends because the figure only needed to move 3 squares of a possible 5, or because he used all of his 5 move to get adjacent, or because he entered Hindering and had to stop.
Your friend may be thinking of HHS, where the attack is required to come during movement: in that case, ending movement due to entering Hindering would stop the attack.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
Your friend may be thinking of HHS, where the attack is required to come during movement: in that case, ending movement due to entering Hindering would stop the attack.
I still don't think that's correct. You would have to end your movement in hindering (unless it was a HSS and had the ability to fly). I think it's one of those instances when you choose what happens first aka your attack happen, then your movement ends. Also, you don't have to keep moving after a HSS attack, so stopping via hindering or just stopping out of choice shouldn't make a difference.
I still don't think that's correct. You would have to end your movement in hindering (unless it was a HSS and had the ability to fly). I think it's one of those instances when you choose what happens first aka your attack happen, then your movement ends. Also, you don't have to keep moving after a HSS attack, so stopping via hindering or just stopping out of choice shouldn't make a difference.
I cannot copy and paste cause I'm on phone but HSS: During the move
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
I still don't think that's correct. You would have to end your movement in hindering (unless it was a HSS and had the ability to fly). I think it's one of those instances when you choose what happens first aka your attack happen, then your movement ends. Also, you don't have to keep moving after a HSS attack, so stopping via hindering or just stopping out of choice shouldn't make a difference.
You're mistaken. An HSS figure who cannot ignore the effect of terrain will have to stop if he enters Hindering. He cannot then make an attack because his movement has stopped and the attack must come during movement.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
He argued that because hindering forces a character to end their movement upon entering it, that the attack portion of charge cannot be made because the player didn't choose to end their movement, they were forced to.
Moving into a square adjacent to an opposing character forces a character to stop their movement, as well. If characters couldn't attack after charging because they were forced to stop moving, there would be a lot of characters with a power they couldn't use.
I cannot copy and paste cause I'm on phone but HSS: During the move
I understand that, but wouldn't the end of the move still be during the move? The ending of a movie is still part of a movie. What occurs first: the character ending the move or the attack occurring during the last bit of the move? I'm not trying to be a doofus, I've just never been aware of this and/or it's never come up in a game I've played.
I understand that, but wouldn't the end of the move still be during the move? The ending of a movie is still part of a movie. What occurs first: the character ending the move or the attack occurring during the last bit of the move? I'm not trying to be a doofus, I've just never been aware of this and/or it's never come up in a game I've played.
Page 12 of 2011 Rulebook under Hindering Terrain. First Bullet.(Again on phone so I cannot copy and paste)
A character on non-hindering terrain moves to hindering terrain, movement stops.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Another example would be a character with super strength trying to pick up an object underneath an opposing character. As soon as the character becomes adjacent movement stops and he cannot pick up the object. If there was a choice to make an action while still moving before stopping the character would be able to pick up the object, but they cannot. Same with HSS.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
I understand that, but wouldn't the end of the move still be during the move? The ending of a movie is still part of a movie. What occurs first: the character ending the move or the attack occurring during the last bit of the move? I'm not trying to be a doofus, I've just never been aware of this and/or it's never come up in a game I've played.
If the end of the move is, say, the 10th square of a 10-square MV then yes, the attack can still be made: that would be your "choose to attack before ending my move" scenario. If the movement is stopped by an external effect (like a non-flying HSS figure entering Hindering) then because the attack must be "while moving" it can't be made. I can see where the distinction might be missed if you've generally played casually (as opposed to events with an official judge) but it has been the rule as long as I've been playing (or judging).
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
CHARGE: Give this character a power action; halve its speed value for the action.
Move this character up to its speed value and then it may be given a close combat
action as a free action. A character using this power ignores knock back.
this is from the newest PAC
Another man loomed up and the sword fell on him like a falling star, crushed his helmet and the skull beneath it down to his mouth. The body dropped on its back and danced a merry jig in the dirt."Dance!" laughed the Bloody-Nine.
If the end of the move is, say, the 10th square of a 10-square MV then yes, the attack can still be made: that would be your "choose to attack before ending my move" scenario. If the movement is stopped by an external effect (like a non-flying HSS figure entering Hindering) then because the attack must be "while moving" it can't be made. I can see where the distinction might be missed if you've generally played casually (as opposed to events with an official judge) but it has been the rule as long as I've been playing (or judging).
So, technically I could use all of my movement by essentially moving back and forth, ending my movement in the square, and make a legal attack... semantics really. I've played in countless official matches (been in the tourney scene since 03 haha), but I can't remember this ever coming up haha.
Also, my apologies for derailing this tread... but to the OP yeah, your friend was wrong
If the end of the move is, say, the 10th square of a 10-square MV then yes, the attack can still be made: that would be your "choose to attack before ending my move" scenario. If the movement is stopped by an external effect (like a non-flying HSS figure entering Hindering) then because the attack must be "while moving" it can't be made. I can see where the distinction might be missed if you've generally played casually (as opposed to events with an official judge) but it has been the rule as long as I've been playing (or judging).
Necrodog nailed it.
Quote : Originally Posted by Magnito
In other words, it's all Vlad's fault.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
Though I'm pretty sure if we ever meet rl, you get a free junk shot on me.
Quote : Originally Posted by Thrumble Funk
Vlad is neither good nor evil. He is simply Legal.
The thing though is this has still came up at my venue. Though I pointed out that with a charge you move UP to your movement and THEN you get a free close combat action, which our judge completely agreed was what is the logical conclusion.
However, he also said that the current RA over at Wizkids ruled that when a non flyer enters hindering terrain that character's action automatically end and therefore cannot use the attack from the charge action. I guess that in theory includes running shot. Sounds to me like the logic that should be used in the current rulebook for hypersonic speed but whatever. Whole thing left me pretty confused since the whole thing looking at the current rulebook anyway makes no sense.