OK guys, I've been working on a plain-english draft of rules for LoF to help the noobs out. I'm hoping this clears up the most frequent threads I've seen here. Please help me out with any input or corrections you see:

"Heroclix LoF FAQ
v1.0 by TheEnigma [[email protected]]
Last Update: 3/24/03

Line of Fire:
In order to use a ranged combat action against another figure, you must first determine if the attacker has a clear Line of Fire to the target. LoF also applies to the powers Outwit, Perplex, and Probability Control, and the Hydra team ability.
To determine basic LoF, draw an imaginary line from the center of the attacker's square to the center of the Defender's square.
LoF is then modified as follows:

1) If both A and D are grounded figures:
a) If LoF passes through any square containing blocking terrain (thick black lines on the map) or any figure, whether grounded, hovering or soaring, it is blocked.
b) If D possesses the Stealth power or the Batman Ally team ability, LoF is blocked if it crosses through hindering terrain or if D is standing in hindering terrain. Figures with the Stealth power or Batman Ally team ability still block LoF to other figures.
c) If LoF passes through the exact corner between two diagonally adjacent squares containing figures, it is _not_ blocked.
d) If LoF passes through the exact corner between two diagonally adjacent squares containing blocking terrain (Barrier, or building corners, etc.) it is blocked.
e) If LoF passes through the exact corner between two diagonally adjacent squares where one contains blocking terrain and the other does not, it is _not_ blocked.

2) If A is on elevated terrain and D is grounded:
a) If LoF passes through any square containing any grounded figures, it is _not_ blocked.
b) If LoF passes through any square containing any other elevated figures, it is blocked.
c) If LoF passes through any square containing blocking terrain other than the square A is standing in, it is blocked.
d) If D possesses the Stealth power or the Batman Ally team ability, LoF is only blocked if D is standing _in_ hindering terrain. An elevated Attacker ignores all intervening hindering terrain except for the square the Defender is standing in.

3) If A is grounded and D is on elevated terrain:
a) If LoF passes through any square containing any figure, whether grounded, hovering or soaring, it is blocked
b) If LoF passes through any square containing blocking terrain except for the square D is standing in, it is blocked. This means A may only shoot at a figure on the very edge of the roof.

4) If both A and D are on elevated terrain:
a) If LoF passes through any square containing elevated blocking terrain, it is blocked. Elevated blocking terrain is defined as features on a rooftop surrounded by thick black lines (such as air conditioners) or Barrier tokens placed on elevated terrain. The edges of rooftops is not elevated blocking terrain. Grounded blocking terrain does not affect LoF for two elevated figures.
b) If LoF passes through any square of elevated terrain containing a figure, it is blocked. Grounded figures do not block LoF for elevated figures.

5) If either figure is a Sentinel/Sinestro:
a) If LoF passes through any square containing any figure that is not a Sentinel/Sinestro, it is _not_ blocked.
b) If LoF passes through blocking terrain it is blocked.

Note: If A has LoF to the target that passes through one or more squares of hindering terrain, excluding the squares A and D are standing in, D receives a +1 bonus to his Defense."



EDIT 1: Added VeggieHater's correction. Thanks man!
EDIT 2: NateTG - I think the elevated terrain points are covered in 3b thanks to the earlier definition of blocking terrain (thick black line). I have added the new scenario of both being elevated and the comment concerning hindering terrain.
EDIT 3: Added new notes concerning elevated attackers.

Good work!

Just being a little nitpicky but entry 2b should read.

"If LoF passes through blocking terrain, other than the square A is standing in it is blocked.

Because shooting of the edge of a rooftop still passes through that line of blocking terrain, which you even point out in 3b.

Hope this helps,
VH

With the current format, you need to address the A is elevated D is elevated case.

It would be nice if it were explicit that:
1. Elevated terrain is considered blocking if A is grounded.
2. Elevated terrain except for the square that A is in, is considered blocking if A is elevated and shooting at a grounded target.

"If D possess the power Stealth," should probably be "If D has the Stealth power or Batman team ability active," since both Stealth and the Batman team ability are optional.

You should incorporate the rules for whether LOF is "hindered' -- considered to be passing through hindering terrain.

In part 4 you completely forgot that any other elevated figure; non-flyer, hovering or soaring blocks LOF.

In part 2 you are placing one version of the LOF rules which is still debated. You have omitted the written 'exceptions' to elevated attackers ignoring 'grounded-figures'/'hindering terrain'[not in d's square] which is still viewed in many different ways.
In this case you inserted your version..."ignores all other figures". This is a losse interpretation of the rules and is not in fact worded/stated anywhere in any book/faq as you presented it.

The other issues is on some maps the stairs going to elevated rooftops are not completely 'edged' with thick black lines. So if A is on the roof at the top of the stairs and C is next to him atop the roof[in the square 'next' to the bottom stair square] it is possible for A's LOF to pass through C's square and to hit D on the ground and still not pass through any thick black lines. That is just the case for a few of the maps...I think mainly DC maps.

just some points
wes

so where does the Tax come in at??

admironheart...
This is directly from the original rules:
"Line of sight from an elevated attacker is not blocked or hindered by other grounded figures or grounded hindering terrain unless the terrain occupies the same square as the target. "

No interpreation there.

I have added the note about elevated/flying characters to section 4.

I'm still researching the stairs issue and will probably address it in a future version.

Thanks for the input!

So how does a character who is soaring effect LOF? Do they block grounded? Do they block Elevated?

Although I'm not suggesting it makes a lot of sense....

A Soaring character does block line of fire between two grounded figures, but does not block it for an elevated attacker.

Soaring is the point of contention for elevated targeting issues.

The rules[ in the same paragraph] sets up the object for debate...two sentences imply two different things/positions.

1st side: pg18/marvel book ["Characters, objects and terrain that are not elevated are called grounded"]
Seems fairly simple and clear.

2nd side: pg18/Marvel book-very next sentence in the paragragh which elaborates upon the first in detail["A grounded character may be hovering, or simply a non-flyer"]

So this eliminates Soaring figures from the grounded equation....which the first sentence made so clear.

This is further exaceberated and supports the 2nd side of the argument by the published FAQ

2nd side: under LOF-1st bullet ["*Except where otherwise specified in the printed rules(for example , Sentinals and rules for elevated attackers on pg19), a square that is occupied by a figure always blocks line of fire."]
-2nd bullet["*For purposes of line of fire, hovering characters should be considered grounded. Hovering characters do not block line of fire from an elevated attacker"]

So here we have clarification that supports the rule book ruling that Hovering characters[and no mention of soaring characters] are considered grounded and follow the exception to the normal targeting rules for an elevated attacker listed in the rule book.{so this is 1 of the listed exceptions/benefits to elevated attackers}

The Rules do NOT state 'A grounded character may be a flyer, or simply a non-flyer' it elaborates that a 'hovering' character which is supported in the FAQ...Soaring characters are omitted in both instances.

We have to consider game mechanics and not our own individual 'rational' for the game mechanics. Many of which are quite wacky.[just look at all the threads on this site]

Remember that a Sentinal can engage both Elevated attackers and Soaring characters in HTH. So when it comes to your personal rational for this game mechanic do not assume that a Soaring figure is much taller than a sentinal which may or may not be lower than most buildings.

We cannot let our 'opinionated' reasonings affect the stated rules.
Yes there are 2 conflicting rules in the same paragraph.
However, the 2nd side is supported by deductive methods [which may be inaccurate, but at least is coherant].

Read the rule paragraph again. If what side 1 is saying then there is NO reason for the second sentence.It is would be a redundant sentence. If they wanted to include soaring figures, they most likely would have mentioned 'flyers, or non-flyers' which are commonly used terms in thr rules. The second part of a paragragh functions to articulate the 'general' purpose of the first part. So I deduct that the first line is a generalization and the 2nd implies the specific intent.
Also, in the FAQ, it does use the word 'hovering' in the second bullet not 'flyers or soaring'.

So we can choose side 1 or side 2. Side 2 uses deductive methods based on the rules/faq
Side 1 uses 1 conflicted line from the rules with 'guesses' as to what the writers meant.
Did the writers mean to include soaring or not? What was on their minds..
What is actually stated is important and not our guesses into the designer psyche when figuring game mechanics.

You may interpret Soaring in one way{flying high in the air...which could be just 20'], but that has no bearing on game mechanics which must be applied

sorry for the rant

wes

That should be "excluding the square that A is standing in." Hindering terrain in the square that D is standing in always counts.

Incorrect. A soaring figure blocks LOF, but if it is on 'grounded' terrain, it is ignored by elevated attackers.

I think instruction for determining if LOF exists are bettes -- something along the lines of:

To determine whether A has LoF to D, draw a line from the center of the square that A is in, to the center of the square that D is in.

If that line passes through any blocking terrain, or the diagonal between two pieces of blocking terrain then A does not have LoF.

If A is on grounded terrain, and the line passes through any squares of elevated terrain, other than the square that D is in, then A does not have Lof.

If A is on grounded terrain, and is not using a Pulse Wave attack, and the line passes through any square containing a figure other than A or D, then A does not have LoF.

If A is on grounded terrain, and the line passes through squares containing hindering terrain, or a diagonal between two squares containing hindering terrain, LoF is hindered. If D has Stealth or the Batman team ability active, then A does not have LoF. If A is making a ranged attack, D gets a +1 bonus to defense.

If A is on elevated terrain, and is not using a Pulse Wave attack, and the line passes through any elevated square containing a figure other than A or D, then A does not have LoF.

If A is on elevated terrain, and the line passes through an elevated square containing hindering terrain, or a diagonal between two elevated squares containing hindering terrain, or D is in hidering terrain, if D has Stealth or the Batman team ability active, then A does not have LoF and if A is making a ranged attack, D gets a +1 bonus to defense.

If A is on elevated terrain and D is on grounded terrain, if the line passes through any elevated squares other than the one that A is in, then A does not have LoF.

Otherwise A has LoF to D.

Notes:
Whether a figure is soaring or not does not affect LoF (but can affect range).
When the text refers to a diagonal between two pieces of blocking terrain, it includes situations where there is a square on either side of the line containing blocking terrain, a square containing blocking terrain on one side, and a wall on the other side of the line, or walls on both sides of the line, but not situatiuons where there are only two walls on one side of the line.
Illustrations would probably be helpful.

I think TheEnigma was trying to make a simplified set of circumstances to go by.

While your suggestions may all be correct, [my head is still spinning] I am not sure that it achieves the goal which TheEnigma set in his simplified sets of examples

I follow his line of examples clearly...while yours, which may be completely accurate, would have many folks confused after the format you set it in.

wes

In many games systems the common thought is this...

If in doubt..."does it give an advantage to one side" If it does it is better not go with it.

So should the advantage in this case go to Soaring, which is very rarely used?
OR
to the Elevated attacker which has many oft-used advantages?

I guess you have to decide...which figure 'really' needs that extra help?

Wes

ps: wondering why everyone loves being elevated...could it be it has so many darn benefits already in the game..."hey, lets make it an even more powerful and lopsided advantage"...I think we would create a less creative game play with that line of thinking.

quote:
A Soaring character does block line of fire between two grounded figures, but does not block it for an elevated attacker.

"Incorrect. A soaring figure blocks LOF, but if it is on 'grounded' terrain, it is ignored by elevated attackers."

Actually that's exactly what I said. The only figures who block LoF for elevated attackers are the ones who are also on elevated terrain themselves. That's the rationale behind the note in 1a): "any figure, whether grounded, hovering or soaring".

admironheart:
I'm still ironing out the kinks in this one. I'm gonna have to do a little more homework on your (very valid) point, but I'm almost positive I've seen Tsannik and others rule about this issue, which already makes it semi-official. I'm also referring to three lines in the original rulebook that state:
1) "Soaring characters may only affect other soaring characters."
2) "There is no terrain at the soaring level of flight."
and
3) "If both the attacker and target are on elevated clear terrain, nothing affects the line of fire except elevated hindering and blocking terrain, and other elevated figures."

Which would seem to indicate to me that soaring characters would not be able to block anyone at all except other soaring characters shooting at each other, but given the other rules already in play it seems quite logical to me that soaring characters cannot block LoF between an elevated attacker and an elevated target unless he is also on elevated terrain.

It has been noted by some moderators that elevated soaring figures do block LOF from and elevated attacker to an elevated target, but as the rules state, soaring figure would not in that instance.

Keep this in mind.
From the rule book; unless figures are elevated they are grounded. And if grounded then they may ONLY be hovering or a non-flyer, by definition.

If what side 1 implies is accepted...then you could ONLY soar on elevated terrain!!! It would be illegal to soar unless you where over a building. This is just getting silly. Superman can only soar if a building is under him ;(
????

This is game mechanics.

Soaring figures can not shoot at hovering or non-flyer because they would dominate the game. As silly as this is.

Taxiing is a part of the rules, as silly as it plays out on the board, else range combat would dominate the game.

Soaring figures are not 'grounded' and DO block LOF from elevated attackers to grounded targets so that elevated attackers do not dominate the game.

It is a system of checks and balances.

The reason I think Soaring figures do not block LOF from elevated attacker to elevated target, while elevated soaring figs do is....The soaring figure is actually lower than the building top.

Hovering is close enough to interact with the non-flyers, soaring is everything else [high above the battlefield], To me anything over 15'... and a thug/lackey could not interact with...which is what hovering IS. So Soaring can be anything over 20' high. You try floating 20+' high...And I bet you think you are 'high above the battlefield'. Sentinals range in height from 26' - 40', to future versions of 60' ...many buildings MAY far exceed that on our gameboards.

So why do you have to half the range to hit a soaring figuere:
YOU guessed it : GAME MECHANICS...I just assume they are using evasive maneuvers to avoid the other non-soaring figs.
They have to have some 'defensive benefit' since they cannot fight back at the non-flyers/hovering figs. The actual concept of where the soaring fig is in height is irrelevent.

Also keep in mind that Soaring figs do block movement as any other non-flyer/hovering fig...why: GAME MECHANICS.

Aslos keep in mind that Soaring Superman can knockback Soaring WAsp , but she STILL stops in the space just in front of grounded ANT-Man????? Why : GAME MECHANICS.

Some things may seem silly, but this is the best format they made for the game thus far and that is how it should be played

thanks for the LOF debate

wes

ps.: several moderators have disagreed and some have concurred with me...and then most have abandoned the subject as there is no correct answer...
I'm just following game mechanics to its bitter end

Although It has nothing to do with game mechanics in the generals sense....

I forgot to elaborate about sentinals.
while sentinals can reach up and grab/attack elevated figs on buildings...they Can also attack Soaring Figures in close combat as well.

Thus you MAY reason that soaring figures are somewhere within a 26'-40' tall sentinals' grasp.

forgot to include that little tidbit of 'Useless' info.

wes